How NOT to concisely argue for a Traditional view of Jesus' childhood, a reply to Jason Engwer

This is my reply to a Triablogue article by Jason Engwer entitled

How To Concisely Argue For A Traditional View Of Jesus' Childhood

Monday, December 09, 2019

Engwer, true to form, once again choose to pay attention to meaningless trifles.

Engwer is forced to agree with his apostle Paul that to disprove the resurrection of Jesus is to turn Christians into false witnesses who are still in their sins, 1st Corinthians 15:15 (which then means they deserve the death penalty even if they do real miracles in support of their theology, Deut. 13).  Since I have demolished Jesus' resurrection by showing that the naturalistic theory has more explanatory scope and power, I must conclude that arguing about Jesus' childhood can never be sufficient to fix the wormwood infecting Christianity's linchpin doctrine.

I therefore only answer Engwer point by point on Jesus' childhood solely out of my preference to demolish fundamentalist Christianity in all its forms, not because of any stupid worry that justifying the canonical Nativity stories somehow makes Christianity worthy of the slightest credence. 

There are a lot of ways to argue for a traditional view of the childhood of Jesus, and we've been making those arguments for a long time. But it's often helpful to be able to argue concisely for what you believe. That can be hard to do when a subject is as large and complicated as the earliest years of Jesus' life.

Actually, its not complicated at all.  The gospel authors say nearly nothing about Jesus' childhood, likely because they knew that trying to convince the public that some infant crapping his diaper was the creator of the universe just sounded a bit too stupid even for pre-literate religious fanatics, and most people would more readily accept divine-man claims if the person at issue was at least an adult.  By limiting Jesus' miracles to some life-point past his infancy, stupid shit questions about how a baby could be god and yet still not have control of his own bowel movements are conveniently avoided.

For example, to say that Jesus was the creator is to imply that he never sinned.  A child who never disobeys his parents?   How believable is that?  Since people who believe in miracles don't always think the most outlandish things, it appears the gospel authors, despite willingness to tell miracle stories, still recognize that some miracle stories can go too far.  The mark of a good professional liar is that they know where employing circumspection will cause their story to "ring" more true.

We are addressing years of his life, after all, unlike the narrower focus of Easter, for example. But here are a few summary arguments I recommend using:

If you paid more attention to what Jesus actually told you to do, you would have no time to engage in the sin of word-wrangling (2nd Timothy 2:14).  The very fact that Paul showed zero interest in Jesus' childhood should be enough to prove that Paul doesn't think anything is missing by simply leaving Jesus' childhood completely alone.  So your desire to engage in such debate anyway is reasonably construed to signify your lack of satisfaction with Paul's gospel.  But again, if you spent more time doing what Jesus and Paul demanded of their followers, not only would you have no time to spend on debatable pionts, but your obedience to clear commands would make it more likely your efforts would reap spirtiual reward.  you cannot really say whether God gives a fuck whether you say anything about Jesus' childhood or not.  Clearly, you have a morbid interest in controversial questions, the trait that apostle Paul said renders you a stupid heretic (1st Timothy 6:4).

The NT authors never made Jesus' childhood that big of a deal, so you run a significant risk of trying to do better than your god by attempting to satisfy public curiosity about a subject that your god did not see fit to provide any answers to.

Furthermore, if you believe Matthew was written to non-Christian as well as Christian Jews, you get in more trouble, since that would mean that Matthew, the alleged apostle and author, seriously thought that a mere story about Jesus' childhood should "suffice" to "convince" non-Christain Jews, showing your Matthew to be far more anti-intellectual than you'd ever dare credit to him.

You cannot say Matthew would have been there to explain the story, as the patristic evidence, that you treat as infallible without honestly admitting it, says Matthew wrote the gospel to make up for his absence given his intent to leave Jerusalem and travel abroad:

Eusebius, Hist.Eccl. 3:24
Nevertheless, of all the disciples of the Lord, only Matthew and John have left us written memorials, and they, tradition says, were led to write only under the pressure of necessity. For Matthew, who had at first preached to the Hebrews, when he was about to go to other peoples, committed his Gospel to writing in his native tongue, and thus compensated those whom he was obliged to leave for the loss of his presence. 

 [1] Schaff, Chrysostom, Homily on Matthew 1

Of Matthew again it is said, that when those who from amongst the Jews had believed came to him, and besought him to leave to them in writing those same things, which he had spoken to them by word, he also composed his Gospel in the language of the Hebrews. And Mark too, in Egypt, is said to have done this self-same thing at the entreaty of the disciples.

This is quite sufficient to allege that what we find in Matthew's Nativity story is what Matthew preached.  It is also likely that beacuse the gospel followed Matthew's preaching, the written nativity story is likely a polished form of that preaching, so that the written form provides more details than Matthew's oral preaching did.  he was an anti-intellectual.  John was the same way, he expected faith to just magically materialize in the hearts of his readers merely because they read his words (Matthew 20:31).

- Reliable sources on Jesus' childhood were available to the early Christians and their opponents for a long time.

Mary allegedly had visions.  So since Christian apologists never attempt to justify visionary material in the NT, even they agree that when a source is a 'vision', it can be safely discounted.

Close relatives of Jesus lived for more than half a century after his birth.

Which only hurts your cause, as those relatives found nothing in Jesus' public ministry to convince them Jesus was a truly divine person, see Mark 3:21, Mark 6:4 and John 7:5.  You have no interest whatsoever in evaluating the testimony of these alleged eyewitnesses to Jesus' alleged "miracles".  Your other comments that perhaps they were too overcome with jealousy, or they "just didn't understand" are too foolish to deserve comment.  What the fuck would even a stupid person do, if their brother was going around town raising the dead and curing diseases science still deemed incurable?

For a discussion of the credibility of the early reports about Jesus' relatives in general, see here. Regarding how long individuals like Mary and James lived, see here and here.

In the first linked article, you say "He had siblings, and they were initially unbelievers." That's an understatement.  Those siblings committed the unpardonable sin (Mark 3:21, to say somebody was insane was to accuse them of demon possession, see John 8:52, 10:20) and even after a full year into Jesus' public ministry, his brothers were refusing to believe in him and mocking his ability to do miracles (John 7:1-5).  Worse, Jesus himself testified after coming home from his first preaching tour that his own relatives did not properly honor him (Mark 6:4).  In all fairness, though, in the first linked article you admit:

Furthermore, some of the gospel accounts are particularly unlikely to have been fabricated, because of their embarrassing nature. Jesus' mother and brothers refer to Him as insane (Mark 3:20-35), Jesus considers His unbelieving brothers (future church leaders) incompetent to care for His mother (John 19:26-27), etc. John 19:27 tells us that Mary lived past Jesus' death for some unspecified period of time as well, which is corroborated by Acts 1:14 (which, like John 19, has Mary in the region of Jerusalem around the time of Jesus' death).

And I couldn't agree more.  The embarrassing nature of these admissions gives them slightly more historical likelihood than statements that Jesus did real miracles or was the son of god.  Engwer continues:

And those relatives held some prominent positions in the early church, as we see in Acts,

I'm not seeing anything in Acts that definitively puts a relative of Jesus in a prominent place.  Two Jameses were original apostles (Mark 3:17-18), so when two Jameses appear in Acts 1, the more likely truth is that these were the same exact men, and since neither of them can possibly have been the James the brother of the Lord (i.e., he was son of Joseph and thus not a son of 'Zebedee' or son of 'Alphaeus'), and most Christian apologists say the specific brother of Jesus named James was among the relatives in Mark 3:21 who rejected Jesus' message before the crucifixion, therefore, neither James in Acts 1 can be James the brother of Jesus.

Yes, there is an unqualified James in Acts 15, but since there were two different Jameses who were original apostles (supra), saying the James of Acts 15 was one of the original apostles with the same name requires less ad hoc speculation than the hopeful theory that the James of Acts 15 was specifically Jesus' brother.

Galatians 1:19, 2:9-12,

No, inerrantist Christian scholar George, T. admitted that Galatians 1:19 is ambiguous as to whether Paul was saying James the Lord's brother was one of the apostles.  George says:

1:19 Paul claimed that he saw none of the other apostles except James, the brother of Jesus. The expression is ambiguous in Greek, so we cannot be sure whether Paul meant to include James among the other apostles.  Did he mean: “The only other apostle I saw was James,” or “I saw no other apostle, although I did see James”? Probably he meant something like this: “During my sojourn with Peter, I saw none of the other apostles, unless you count James, the Lord’s brother.”

(2001, c1994). New American Commentary, Vol. 30: Galatians,  p. 74)

The James of Galatians 2:9 ff is at least 15 verses away from 1:19, so it clearly isn't close enough to justify pretending that Paul was talking about the same exact person, he could just as likely have been referring simply to another apostle James whose headship of the Jerusalem church did not need to be specified.  But I would argue that because Paul refers to Peter (Cephas) James and John (2:9), it is most reasonable to assume these men achieved leadership in the Jerusalem church because they were previously among Jesus' inner circle, the precise type of apostles most likely to attain a high leadership position. See Mark 5:37, 13:3 and Matthew 17:1, 9).  The reasonableness of this interpretation is not going to disappear merely because there are other bare possibilities.  However,

Engwer continues:

1 Corinthians 9:5,

First, the mere fact that early church fathers debated whether Jesus had multiple brothers is itself enough to justify the person who says 1st Cor. 9:5 is too ambiguous to think it can yield conclusions of reasonable certainty.  See here.

Second, Paul distinguishes the "rest of the apostles" from the "brothers of the Lord".  This is naturally expected if Paul felt Jesus' brothers did not qualify as apostles, and merely sometimes accompanied the apostles during missions.

Third, Mark 6:3 lists 4 brothers of Jesus, James being one, so that the plural "brothers" in 1st Corinthians 9:5 would still be accurate even if we asserted one specifc brother, James, never converted to Christian faith.

Fourth, the mere fact that the head apostles gave Paul the 'right hand of fellowship' (Galatians 2:9) need not imply those apostles agreed with Paul's gospel, so that even if 1st Cor. 9:5 proves that James the brother of Christ sometimes accompanied other apostles on missions, his presence in such context doesn't demand that he was a convert to Christianity.  In the mid-40's there was a terrible famine in and around Palestine, and the Jerusalem apostles could very well have viewed Paul as a meal-ticket and that's the only reason they pretended to support his version of the gospel (though it is weird that in Gal. 2:9, they allocate the entire Gentile mission field to Paul and confine themselves solely to Jews,  when in fact the risen Christ allegedly said THEY were to evangelize the Gentiles (Matthew 28:19).

Fifth, other historical "facts" about James the Lord's brother show that he did not agree with Paul's theology, he was a Judaizer and likely for that reason was held in high esteem among non-Christian law-observant Jews, which would hardly be the case if this exact James preached the same message Jesus did, you know, the one that incurred the wrath of the Jewish people (Matthew 12:14, 27:25).

the letters of James and Jude, etc.

There is nothing about the authorship of James' epistle that suggests he was specifically a brother of Jesus, and there were two original apostles of Christ named James whose authorship could just as easily account for that epistle's echoing some of Christ's alleged sayings.  I would argue their aurthorship is ore likely than by James the brother of Christ since they spent three years with Jesus before he died, whereas the brother of Jesus name James was a late-comer, so that naturally either of the two original apostles of the same name are more likely to have more familiarity with Jesus' sayings.

For both epistle of James and epistle of Jude, it is quite difficult to believe, in light of Jesus granting specific authority to certain apostles (Matthew 16:18), and in light of Paul's admission that the early Christian laity recognized certain apostles as authoritative (Galatians 2:6), and in light of Peter's belief that only TWELEVE men could possibly be legitimate apostles (Acts 1, his seeing a need to replace Judas with Matthias), that the authors, if they are true apostles, would fail, as they do, to specify their authority and position.  1st Peter starts out with the author declaring he is an "apostle", 2nd Peter doesn't matter because it is reasonably construed a forgery despite the trifles of fundamentalists otherwise, and Paul is always identifying himself as an apostle and authority.   Yet James and Jude place themselves at the level of other Christians by declaring themselves "bond-servants" of Christ (James 1:1, Jude 1:1).  The reasonableness of saying the true authors were not the leaders bearing those names, but lesser persons who either had the same names, or wrote what they thought such leaders would have written, is not going to disappear merely because other authorship theories are also within the realm of viable possibility.

Keep in mind that Jesus' relatives were critical of him at times, so his enemies would have had an interest in and ability to get information about his background from those relatives.

Agreed.  Which probably accounts for why we have no surviving records from the 1st century of those hostile to Jesus.  When the enemies can use Jesus' family against him, us Christians must "destroy the memory of Amalek from under heaven..."  Paul wanted to 'stop' the mouths of Jewish Christians who were teachings things he didn't approve of, see Titus 1:11.  That's not calling for democratic debate, and its not asking those listening to the jewish Christians to "check out" Paul's competing claims, that's asking for the Jewish Christian assertions to cease circulation altogether.

Some of Jesus' neighbors, coworkers, and contemporaries in places like Bethlehem and Nazareth also would have lived past the time of his death, even for decades in some cases. The same is true of the religious authorities and others who opposed him and had him executed. Just as the early Christians passed on information from generation to generation, so did their enemies. The early Christians and their opponents produced many documents in the earliest decades of Christianity, not just the ones we possess today, as I argue here.

 Except that it is also reasonable to conclude that the Judaizers wrote letters critical of Paul (their ability to convince Peter and "even Barnabas" (Galatians 2) might suggest the case for the Judaizer gospel is more powerful than what you can tell from mirror-reading Galatians and Acts 15), yet we have no such thing from the 1st century.

And see here for some comments from Larry Hurtado about how the literacy of the early Christians is often underestimated.

Many of Paul's converts were illiterate (1st Corinthians 1:26).  perhaps you will argue that the Greek word for "many" need only mean "two".

- We have a lot of evidence for a traditional view of Jesus' childhood.

The significance of which is completely debunked by Jesus' own complete apathy toward and silence on his own childhood, as if he was of the belief that what happened in his childhood had no significant bearing on his claim to the Messiah.  Add to this the fact that 25 of the 27 NT books show zero concern for events in Jesus' childhood, and you are a fool to insist that skeptics are somehow intellectually obligated to give two shits about these speculations that you just cannot resist wasting your time with.  Then again, Jason Engwer thinks it is proper use of God's money to help digitize and preserve the audiotapes of the Enfield Poltergeist, which according to his bible constitutes using god's money to preserve records of the manifestations of demon activity.  We can safely assume Engwer is so fanatical in his desire to prove bible inerrancy and apologetics, he ends up often contradicting the bible.

I don't think the evidence supporting a traditional view of Jesus' childhood is consistent, for example, Luke 2:52 doesn't say Jesus' human nature increased in wisdom, it says "Jesus" increased in wisdom, and it is eisogesis to read the orthodox resolution to the Arian and Nestorian "heresies" back into the earlier text, when it is more objective to prioritize the author's own context.  If that requires that Luke was saying all parts of Jesus (i.e., both divine and human) grew in wisdom, that will only bother fundamentalist Christians, skeptics will not worry too much that this makes for a bad day in classical theism-land.  Let's just say that the average person of the first century appears to have believed, in rather uncritical unquestioning way, that the gods could take on human form, Acts 14:11.  The point is that these kinds of statements make the historical Jesus so utterly unbelievable that what one might "prove" from his childhood is absurdly irrelevant.

Much of what the early Christians report about the childhood of Jesus meets modern historical standards, like multiple attestation,

First, multiple attestation is a weak criteria, it assumes that if you have at least two witnesses who agree on a fact, the jury has no choice but to consider the fact established.  That's just stupid, especially in the first century where thousands of Christians testified in favor of the "fact" that Paul was hypocritical in his preaching (Acts 21:20) and is therefore an example of how even today's Christian apologists will quickly dismiss multiply-attested "facts".  How many thousands of witnesses testify to Roman Catholic miracles at Fatima and elsewhere?  Engwer will trifle that he doesn't deny their miraculous nature but only the conclusion that God approves of Roman Catholicism, but that misses the point:  God's approval of Roman Catholicism is ALSO what's multiply attested in such modern-day miracles.  That is, Engwer will find it impossibly difficult to continue parading multiple attestation as the final nail in the skeptic's conffin.  If he dares attempt to look objective by pretending he doesn't necessarily always believe miracles merely because they are multiply attested, then he cannot blame skeptics who, like him, cite other evidentiary shortcomings in a claim and its evidence which they feel are greater than its "multiple attestation".

Second, Matthean priority is also meets multiple attestation in the church fathers, but most Christian scholars insist in Markan priority.  Matthew's authorship of the gospel now bearing his name is also multiply attested in the patristic literature, but because it appears the latter fathers are basically all merely echoing the Papias-tradition, such multiple attestation is more correctly characterized is mere echoing, not independent corroboration.

Third, multiple attestation barely operates here in the debate about Jesus' childhood:  you only have two accounts.  You are not going to place intellectual compulsion on skeptics by trifling about John 1:13 and Mark 6:3.  The very fact that no other NT author finds Jesus-childhood- stories edifying enough to warrant mention would justify the view that the earliest apostles were not in agreement on whether the virgin birth story was true (they would have to agree that if true, it would certainly do as much to support their claims about Jesus as do their own unique claims about the miracles he did in adulthood).   So the silence of most NT authors on the virgin birth remains significant.  That's not going to disappear merely because you can always posit some other possibility to explain such silence such as "maybe they knew their audience accepted it so it didn't need to be repeated".

the criterion of embarrassment,

Which justifies skepticism in the case of Mark 3:21, 6:4 and John 7:5.  Then again, Matthew and Luke obviously weren't "apologetics" by any stretch, and their fallacy of argument by assertion (i.e., preaching to the choir) might warrant the conclusion they were written only for believers, in which case, the authors would not think their tales of Jesus' nativity were "embarrassing", so that such tales do not "pass" the criteria of embarrassment.

and the criterion of coherence.

Nah, that's just another way for you to say "bible inerrancy".  Plenty of scholars find real discrepancies between the gospels, including Mike Licona, who remains unimpressed with Lydia McGrew's sin of word-wrangling.

For some examples, see here and here.
 - There's a significant lack of support in the ancient sources for skeptical alternatives to a traditional Christian view of the childhood of Jesus.

First, not if common sense is allowed in.  If Jesus' human vocal cords necessarily implicated his divine nature when he spoke a phrase that many conservative Christian scholars don't think he actually spoke (John 8:58), then there is nothing necessarily fallacious in saying Jesus' human acts implicated his divine nature, in which case it follows with equal logic that when the baby Jesus' mouth was spilling slobber, his was also implicating his divine nature (i.e., the creator of the universe slobbered).  The logic of the incarnate logos does not allow desperate Trinintarians to decree which acts of the human Jesus implicated his divine nature and which didn't.  Any such attempt would be necessarily arbitrary.  Jesus' human nature never implicates his divine nature, where doing so would overturn your cherished doctrine of classical theism.

Second, thanks for indicating that you don't think the argument from silence is always fallacious.

Third, you are assuming that the Christian claims in the early period would have so interested skeptics as to not only prompt them to research Jesus' childhood, but to publish the results in a way that would have survived the next few centuries in which Christian leaders insisted on burning "heretical" books which disagreed with orthodox doctrine.  In truth Jesus was at best a local miscreant whom history would have nearly completely forgotten had it not been for the efforts of his fanatics to keep his memory alive.  Jesus was not such a big deal in his own lifetime nor in the lifetime of Paul for anybody outside that religion to give two fucks about documenting facts about Jesus' childhood in a way likely to survive the burn barrels of the next 4 centuries.  25 of the 27 NT books make absolutely zero effort to preserving Jesus' childhood events for posterity.  The fundamentalist is going to spin that silence in a way that foists any intellectual obligation on a skeptic to either agree or admit being unreasonable.

Fourth, our knowledge of the early Christian sects that denied Jesus' divinity and virgin birth are limited to church fathers who always embellished their descriptions of the sects with hateful vitriol, justifying a degree of hesitancy before blindly accepting all negative slurs therein as objective unbiased historical truth.

Justin Martyr describes some such Christians.  Dialogue, Chapter XLVIII

For there are some, my friends,” I said, “of our race,150 who admit that He is Christ, while holding Him to be man of men; with whom I do not agree, nor would I,151 even though most of those who have [now] the same opinions as myself should say so; since we were enjoined by Christ Himself to put no faith in human doctrines,152 but in those proclaimed by the blessed prophets and taught by Himself.
150 Some read, “of your race,” referring to the Ebionites. Maranus believes the reference is to the Ebionites, and supports in a long note the reading “our,” inasmuch as Justin would be more likely to associate these Ebionites with Christians than with Jews, even though they were heretics.
151 Langus translates: “Nor would, indeed, many who are of the same opinion as myself say so.”
152 [Note this emphatic testimony of primitive faith.]
Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (1997). The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325. The apostolic fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

Irenaeus A.H. Book 3, ch. XI:

For the Ebionites, who use Matthew’s Gospel¹⁴¹ only, are confuted out of this very same, making false suppositions with regard to the Lord.

141 Harvey thinks that this is the Hebrew Gospel of which Irenaeus speaks in the opening of this book; but comp. Dr. Robert’s Discussions on the Gospels, part ii. chap. iv.Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (1997). The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325. The apostolic fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

Obviously Engwer has forgotten that the views of the Ebionites count as "ancient".  Engwer will trifle that the Ebiontes are not as early as the the gospels of Matthew and Luke, but he doesn't actually know that.  All he knows is that references to the Ebionites are later than the gospels, he cannot establish that they originated in the 2nd century.  Furthermore, most Christian scholars date Matthew and Luke to about to 80 a.d. or even later, which means those who denied the virgin birth wouldn't be doing so until late 1st century.  Gene Bridges from Triablogue apparently thinks the Ebionites of the 2nd century were the outgrowth of the Judaizers present at the Council of Jerusalem:

And as matter of fact, we can see that the Judaizers of the First Century are the very ones who turn into Ebionites of the second order later on. That's what the conflict that the Jerusalem Council recorded in Acts was meant to address. (link here).

So it remains reasonable, even if not infallible, to infer that the Judaizers of the Council of Jerusalem were not merely demanding Gentile circumcision, but were also denying Jesus' divinity and virgin birth. I defy anyone to dare attempt to show that the specifically Jewish Christians believed Jesus to be god manifest in the flesh.

Dr. James Tabor, Professor of ancient Judaism and early Christianity, thinks the Ebionites were the original followers of Jesus, see here, so the position adopted in responsible scholarship must remain reasonable despite Engwer's ceaseless trifles otherwise.

Eusebius significantly says that while Ebionites could not get some Christians to agree with all they believed, they were successful in getting such Christians to adopt other forms of "heresy", so that the Ebionites position, could be sustained against rebuttal to some degree, that is, the "heresy" had some teeth to it and wasn't just the casual unthinking uncritical happenstance conjuring up of doctrine that Engwer seems to think characterizes everything christian alternative he doesn't agree with:

Eusebius, church history, Book 3, ch. 27

The Heresy of the Ebionites 

The evil demon, however, being unable to tear certain others from their allegiance to the Christ of God, yet found them susceptible in a different direction, and so brought them over to his own purposes. The ancients quite properly called these men Ebionites, because they held poor and mean opinions concerning Christ. For they considered him a plain and common man, who was justified only because of his superior virtue, and who was the fruit of the intercourse of a man with Mary. In their opinion the observance of the ceremonial law was altogether necessary, on the ground that they could not be saved by faith in Christ alone and by a corresponding life. There were others, however, besides them, that were of the same name, but avoided the strange and absurd beliefs of the former, and did not deny that the Lord was born of a virgin and of the Holy Spirit. But nevertheless, inasmuch as they also refused to acknowledge that he pre-existed, being God, Word, and Wisdom, they turned aside into the impiety of the former, especially when they, like them, endeavored to observe strictly the bodily worship of the law. These men, moreover, thought that it was necessary to reject all the epistles of the apostle, whom they called an apostate from the law; and they used only the so-called Gospel according to the Hebrews and made small account of the rest. The Sabbath and the rest of the discipline of the Jews they observed just like them, but at the same time, like us, they celebrated the Lord's days as a memorial of the resurrection of the Saviour. Wherefore, in consequence of such a course they received the name of Ebionites, which signified the poverty of their understanding. For this is the name by which a poor man is called among the Hebrews.  

Engwer continues:

For example, the early opponents of Christianity not only don't seem to have opposed the Bethlehem birthplace of Jesus, but even corroborated it.

The evidence that Jesus stayed dead is overwhelming, whether he was "really" born in Bethlehem is something I couldn't give a shit about.

Not only does Celsus not agree with the popular modern notion that the virgin birth claim didn't arise until decades after Jesus' death, but he even attributes the claim of a virgin birth to Jesus himself (in Origen, Against Celsus, 1:28). See here for a further discussion of how inconsistent many modern skeptical views of the virgin birth are with ancient non-Christian sources.

Well gee, apostle Paul was "inconsistent" with the Judaizer gospel.  How ancient is the Judaizer gospel, and do you personally give a fuck? No.  Then quit being a hypocrite and pretending the ancient Christian sources YOU favor are somehow more deserving of credence.

Secondly, if Justin attributes the virgin birth claim to Jesus himself, sounds like your star church father had a nasty habit of drawing inferences from the canonical NT that it could not logically support.  Sure is funny that you don't really care how "heretical" your own church fathers were when they say something that supports your particular view.

For more examples of what ancient non-Christian sources said about Jesus' childhood, see here.

I believe there is basic historicity to the nativity stories (when Jesus was born, the family had to move around), I simply assert that they do indeed justify the charge of tension or contradiction, and of course I always use Mark 3:21, Mark 6:4, John 7:5 and other arguments to justify the conclusion that the miraculous portions of the nativity stories are total bullshit.  For example:  most Christian scholars understand Mary to be among the family members who in Mark 3:21 conclude Jesus is "insane" and try to publicly arrest him.    Minority scholars who trifle that Mark 3:21 isn't talking about Jesus family might exist, but do not render unreasonable the skeptics who side with the majority of Christian scholars and apologists on the matter.  And even if we forget Mark 3:21, the hatred Jesus' family had toward him during his alleged "miracle ministry' is still clear from Mark 6:4 and John 7:5, texts that apologists cannot get rid of with trifles about errant translation.

Engwer himself sees James being skeptical of Jesus in Mark 3:21, see here, so I'm not seeing what explosion of exegetical dishonesty anybody would allege is involved in my seeing Jesus' mother in the same verse, a conclusion held by most Christian scholars, including conservatives.

It doesn't matter if excuses can be made to "explain" how Mark 3:21 can be harmonized with the Nativity stories (i.e., maybe Mary experienced amnesia after the visions, etc), it is reasonable to conclude that any woman who experienced the divine confirmations alleged in the Nativity stories would not likely ever conclude that her son was "insane" unless she saw later proof that he prior visions were mere delusion.  Such is not probable, and probability is the key to historicity.  Unless apologists can show that Mary's later becoming forgetful, dismissive or apathetic toward her prior alleged visionary experience is MORE LIKELY than her continuing to trust that it was real, the skeptical position derived from Mark 3:21 will continue being reasonable.

And since they lived in an honor/shame society, the fact that Jesus' immediate family intended to publicly "arrest" him (Mark 3:21) reasonably implies that they had inquired diligently into his claims to make sure they were not basing their shaming behavior on a mistaken notion.  So if they intended to actually arrest him, they more than likely didn't reach that conclusion willy-nilly but only after robust discussion they decided that lesser means would be insufficient.  That is, apologists cannot reasonably charge Jesus' family with impulsiveness or stupidity, as that would then have consequences when such apologists later assert that some of Jesus' stupid impulsive family became leaders in the early church.  Once again, Mary's desire to arrest a son she concluded was "insane" is reasonably viewed as irreconcilable with her having experienced real divine visions while pregnant with Jesus that allegedly confirmed he was the son of God.  "Maybe she just forgot about those when she wanted to arrest Jesus" does not foist an intellectual compulsion on a skeptic, whatsoever, and of course, the paucity of NT evidence on Mary makes it impossible to "argue" that Mary's skepticism of Jesus in Mark 3:21 resulted from some type of mental or psychological imperfection.

The family's desire to arrest Jesus also reasonably justifies the assumption that they didn't experience anything about Jesus in his childhood that would have tipped them off that he is a divine being.  Yet if we are to believe Jesus was god, that necessarily implies that Jesus never, between birth and age 30, sinned.  How many Jews in the first century believed that a regular human being could avoid committing sin for the first 30 years of their life?  So if the Nativity stories were true, the mother of Jesus in Mark 3:21 wasn't just desiring to dishonor her son, but desiring to dishonor that son despite her having noticed that Jesus never sinned in his 30 years.  Now what, Engwer?  Was Mary just high on crack when she concluded Jesus was insane and tried to have him arrested? 

The brothers continuing to persist in unbelief toward Jesus as late as the completion of the first third of his public ministry (John 7:5) is also reasonably interpreted to mean that those brothers did not see anything in Jesus' alleged "miracles" that justified drawing the conclusion that he was the true son of god.  And since John 7:5 passes the criteria of embarrassment, it has greater likelihood of being true, than the laudatory statements in the gospel that Jesus performed miracles.

On the modern skeptical assertion that Luke's census account is radically inaccurate, see this post.

Nothing about my skepticism is affected in the least by admitting that Luke got this right.  Only fools who see so much non-existence relevance to biblical inerrancy would waste their time trifling about this bullshit.

On modern skeptical claims about the authorship of the gospels, see here.

That link goes to a defense of Matthew's authorship of a gospel.  Your arguments are largely irrelevant to my skepticism of his authorship:  you cannot accuse a skeptic of being unreasonable to adopt the position that most Christian scholars adopt:  markan priority (Mark was the first gospel written, and Matthew extensively copies off of Mark).  Yet, I'm sure that as Christian apologists, you will blindly insist that any Christian scholarly theory that happens to also help the skeptical case, is "unreasonable".

Mark was not an eyewitness, Matthew allegedly was, so that's the first problem:  Matthew's use of mark is so extensive that it implies Matthew's author was far more ignorant about the details of Jesus life than Mark was, making it reasonable to conclude Matthew's author was not an eyewitness.  The reasonableness of that theory is not going to disappear merely because you can conjure up another reason, such as Matthew experiencing amnesia (unlikely given your completely gratuitous and unprovable theory that Matthew was inspired by God).  There are no other examples from the 1st century of an eyewitness relying this extensively on a non-eyewitness version of events.  Mike Licona also says apostolic authorship is the "fuzziest" in the case of Matthew and John, which thus prevents you from saying denial of Matthean authorship is "unreasonable".  Your ability to trifle about the patristic details does not suddenly convert Licona's position over to "unreasonable".  You are the one calling the Matthean authorship denial "unreasonable" so YOU have the burden to demonstrate that the denier's interpretation of the internal and external evidence is "unreasonable", and you are never going to do that, and you know it.  The more you condemn such Christian scholarly majority view, the more rational justification I have to conclude, as a skeptic, that serious study of the gospels does precisely nothing to increase the chances that my views of such matters will be reasonable, justifying the further conclusion that atheists who choose to disregard the gospels completely, are not doing anything except protecting themselves from plaguing their lives with ultimately pointless complexities and uncertainties.

Most Christian scholars think authentic Mark ends at 16:8, which makes it reasonable to conclude the earliest form of the gospel did not say a risen Christ actually appeared to anybody, making Matthew's resurrection appearance narrative less likely an "addition" and more likely an "embellishment", as most scholars agree Matthew was published after Mark, and embellishment is more normally found in the later accounts, not the earlier accounts.  Engwer will trifle like N.T. Wright that the various resurrection predictions in Mark scream out for the reader to insist on a resurrection appearance narrative ending that simply got lost.  Unfortunately, apologists never explain where they get this idea that if a gospel story character predicted something,  we are obligated to believe the gospel author added a fulfillment story about it to the gospel, even if the present canonical form of the gospel lacks such addendum.

Acts 1:3 says the risen Jesus spoke to the disciples things concerning the kingdom of God over a period of 40 days, which is reasonably construed to signify speech slightly more extensive than a 15-seconds worth of talking, even if it doesn't mean Jesus spoke like an auctioneer from 9 to 5 for each of those 40 days.  Yet in Matthew, the risen Christ's total words to the apostles take less than 15 seconds to speak.  

You will automatically say "compression!", but because the author of Matthew has such an extensive interest in both sayings of Christ in general, and "kingdom of God" Christ-sayings in particular, it is highly unlikely that such author would have knowingly "chosen to exclude" most of the kingdom-of-God statements which Acts 1:3 alleges the risen Christ uttered, and to instead compress it all down into a 15 second summary that does precisely nothing to guide the nascent church through the Judaizer controversy, despite the fact that even conservative dates for Matthew (50 a.d.) still place it after the Council of Jerusalem (49 a.d.).

There are many examples where Matthew expands on Mark in circumstances that increase the probability that Matthew is simply fabricating Christ sayings.  According to Mark, Peter's confession of Christ consisted of "thou art the Christ" and nothing more from Jesus on that occasion...but in the undeniably parallel account in Matthew, which is obviously talking about the same exact occasion, Peter's confession is longer and more theologically sophisticated, and is followed by what must have been a very important teaching from Christ about Peter's authority, Christ sayings that Mark's account also lacks.  See here.  Since inerrantists and fundies insist that Matthew is reporting what really happened, they are thrown into a dilemma because of Mark's shorter version:  If we must assume Mark's source was Peter, how likely is it that Peter would have said the fuller form of the confession now confined to Matthew, but only gave the shorter form to Mark?  How likely is it that Peter didn't tell Mark about Jesus' important authority-establishing statement, or that Mark knew about it but "chose to exclude" it?  What exact rule of hermeneutics or historiography is the skeptic violating by saying a person like Mark would not likely have "chosen to abbreviate" this kind of information?

All of this makes it reasonable to conclude that the reason the risen Christ in Matthew only gives 15 seconds worth of speech is because that's all the author thought this risen Christ had to say, not because the author is knowingly excluding such words through the artifice of "compression,  thus contradicting the 40-day period of risen Christ speeches alleged in Acts 1:3...a book that comes along LATER and is therefore the logical choice to blame for embellishment.

You will say Mark was based on Peter's preaching so Matthew was actually borrowing text from another apostle, but since it was already shown that Mark's version of Peter's confession is shorter than Matthew's, Matthew's dependence is more upon Mark than on Peter...who surely would have given to Mark all those extra details now confined to Matthew's account.

Finally, patristic accounts allege that Mark was writing for a Roman audience, so that if all else be true, Matthew was not merely relying on "Mark" or "Peter", he was relying on a version of Christ's sayings that Peter had adapted to his Roman audience...which is highly unlikely for the Matthew-author, whose gospel all scholars agree is the most intensely "Jewish" of the 4 canonical gospels.  What, did eyewitness Matthew RE-adapt the secondary Roman form of the the Christ-sayings for his Jewish audience?  Does that sound like somebody who was in a good position to have first-hand knowledge of Jesus' teachings?  Of course not, so then authorship of Matthew by the apostle of the same name, highly unlikely and profoundly irrelevant regardless.

And so on. As with the other two points above, you'd have to be selective in choosing one or more examples to illustrate the point, but we've provided many to choose from.
 To summarize these three points even further:
 1. the presence of reliable sources
2. the presence of evidence for a traditional Christian view
3. the absence of support for skeptical alternatives among the ancient sources
 And you could make it even easier to remember as: presence, presence, absence.
 The importance of these three points can be seen by thinking about how easily the relevant circumstances could have been different than they are and what implications would follow if they were different. What if individuals like Mary and James hadn't lived as long as they did, the earliest Christians hadn't shown so much interest in writing, etc.? What if there wasn't so much information about Jesus' childhood that meets the evidential standards for historically reliable material?

In light of the admissions of Christian scholars like Licona that Matthew wasn't as concerned about historical accuracy as inerrantists are, and in light of the fact that you don't have the first fucking clue how Matthew came up with the Nativity story material (if "how-it-could-have-been" scenarios work for you, you must accord that luxury to skepics also, to avoid charges of hypocrisy).

I'm not aware of any rule of historiography that says a person is intellectually compelled to give the benefit of the doubt to just whatever ancient document he looks at, until somebody comes along to prove it false.  That crap only started with Josh McDowell's dishonest reference to "Aristotle's dictum", but even if such initial trust is legitimate rule of historigraphy, so what?  How many historians say this benefit of the doubt must be given?  Mike Licona's admissions about how historians cannot even agree on methodology, reasonably justifies the conclusion that unless ancient words can be demonstrated to have relevance to the skeptic today, the skeptic cannot be unreasonable if they choose to completely ignore all things from ancient history...which is what the vast majority of people do their whole lives, except for religious fanatics and historians.

Refusing to give the benefit of the doubt to the document isn't like denying a law of physics, as historiography is an art, not a science.  Refusing to waste time learning what ancient authors had to say, can never be shown to result in the same level of disaster that looms over the person who chooses to disagree with the laws of logic, physics or math.  You'd have to show that a skeptic's disagreement with what most historians care about, makes the skeptic unreasonable, but then again, you don't think the skeptic unreasonable to dismiss from consideration the vast majority of ancient religious material.  It's only when we tell YOU to fuck off, that suddenly the only rational people in the world are those who give a fuck about ancient religious sources.

So if skeptics simply laugh at the NT and dismiss it, they aren't committing any academic "error", they are merely making life very hard for a few dipshits at Triablogue who themselves cannot even agree on what the bible teaches (Hays is a Calvinist, Engwer is not, etc).

Nevermind that there is no evidence, whatsoever, that anything stated in ancient history has any significance to modern-day people beyond one's personal preferences and intellectual curiosity.  If we were as objective about ancient history as christian apologists require, we'd never have time to investigate Christianity, because there are so many other possibly true religious claims from the ancient world, whose veracity we'd have to kindly presume true until they were proved false, an enterprise that would take a lifetime.

Gee, what rule of common sense, historiography or literary analysis dictates how long the skeptic should study a religious rooted in ancient claims, before the skeptic can be justified to start drawing ultimate conclusions about it?  Christian apologists will necessarily have to insist that it should take less than a lifetime, so that the skeptic can free up some time to bother with Christianity, but since there is no such rule, the amount of time the skeptic deems sufficient is a highly subjective affair and hence cannot be dicated by worried apologists at Triablogue who are guilty of the sin of ceaseless word-wrangling (2nd Timothy 2:14).

What if the early opponents of Christianity had made significantly different claims about Jesus' childhood, such as by corroborating the Christian claims much less than they did?

What if they did, and those records were destroyed just like thousands of other ancient christian writings?

What if most of the Arian bishops had shown up at the Council of Nicaea?  What if Constantine hadn't bribed anybody but bade them attend at their own expense?

What if the gospel alleged that Jesus sinned a few times during childhood?

 This approach I've outlined doesn't cover every issue, and you still have to address whatever objections are raised. It's a good way to start a discussion and summarize your view, even if it doesn't end the discussion.

And my rebuttal to you is a good way to show that skeptics are not being "unreasonable" in alleging that Jesus was an imperfect child whose history was embellished more than 50 years later, in a way that most NT authors did not seem sufficiently edifying to justify repeating, despite their willingness to repeat most of their issues.

my defense against Christians who criticize the "new atheism"

I posted the following over at a patheos blog, see here:

Hold on, this is waiting to be approved by Cranach.Not seeing the purpose of this piece. The evidence for Jesus resurrection is horrifically weak, and I say this after critically examining the works of Licona, Habermas and W.C. Craig. Paul said if Jesus did not rise from the dead, he is still in his sins, and is a false witness. 

The fact that you can find a certain crazy subgroup among your opponents, does precisely nothing to hurt the argument of your opponents, otherwise, an atheist could conclude Christianity is false, because the idiots who play with snakes in their churches are clearly stupid. 

I'm an atheist. I agree with most Christians that the "new atheists" are more concerned about flaming and rhetoric than argument. But I'm not seeing how the errors of "new atheism" somehow beat down normative atheism, anymore than the errors of KJV Onlyism somehow beat down normative Christianity. 

You are not surviving skeptical attacks on the resurrection of Jesus (Christianity's essential doctrine) by pointing to the errors of "new" atheists. You need to worry about the atheists who trounce your faith, and can do it without resorting to brouhaha and political rhetoric.
https://turchisrong.blogspo...

my challenge to the flat earthers

The average person, not having a college education in astronomy or geology, would likely find some flat-earth arguments "interesting". 

Exactly how much could you say about the coriolis-effect before researching it more than you already have? 

Exactly how much could you say, right now, without doing any further research that you ever did previously, about the inverse-square law?

See what I mean?

You would figure that the multitude of NASA space photos that show

a) earth where Brazil is seen in the center, and
b) earth where the north or south pole is seen in the center

.would convince flat earthers to change their mind, since the only way both such photos can be surrounded by a circular shaped earth is is for the earth to be circular all over (i.e., it is a sphere).  But no, they insist NASA photoshops all such images before daring to release them to the public.

You might wonder how some flat-earthers explain why it is that we can continuously fly from north to south and from east to west without ever encountering an ice-wall or going into outer space. 

What's east of New York?  Iraq.  What's east of Iraq?  China.  What's east of China?  Japan.  What's east of Japan?  Pacific Ocean, then Hawaii, California, and eventually New York again.  That is, you can travel in an easterly direction continuously and never once hit an "ice-wall" or perimeter you simply keep going until you arrive at the next place on the map, exactly as you would if the earth were a globe.

Nesbit says it's because when you travel too far into the ice-perimeter of the flat-earth, there is a time-warp that causes you to suddenly reappear at the opposite end of the earth.  See here.

Gee, you prop up your theory with a time-warp...then you chide everybody else for explaining the earth in ways that involve less mystery?  What's more absurd, space warps, or global shaped earth?

I haven't had the time to google every possible phrase that might provide a search hit showing somebody already thought of this, so here's my challenge to the flat earthers:

First, civilians are capable of launching a rocket high enough to see the shape of earth.  See here.
See lesser attempt of less financially funded persons such as a flat earther rocket launch here.

I see no reason why the Flat Earth Societies cannot pool their resources in the effort to conduct such a launch that would therefore be the "acid test". The rocket need not be very expensive, it is designed to do absolutely nothing but go up only as high as necessary for the entire circumference of earth to be seen..

Second, everybody except flat earthers agree that Brazil is at the "equator" of a spherical earth.

Third, get two such rockets.  Mount downward facing cameras on them, have them live-stream capable.

Fourth, set up the first rocket at the place us conspiracy theorists call the North Pole.  Set up the second rocket in some coastal city in Brazil, like Rio de Janeiro, so that when the rocket falls back to earth it will land safely in the sea instead of on land.

Fifth, stream the video to youtube, to make sure the raw unedited video is recorded by millions of people at the same time it is being streamed, as opposed to simply uploading the videos after they have been recorded and possibly subject to editing, which you know goddamn well will be what everybody says if you don't supply the video until later.  Think of how distrusting YOU are of NASA's space photos.

Sixth, launch the rockets at the same time, on a reasonably clear day.  The constant overcast skies of the north pole are irrelevant, if the rocket gets high enough, it's camera will show the entire earth, whether the portion directly below it is cloudy or not. 

Such a camera recording could also be obtained via high-altitude weather balloon, which .  See here and here.  Such weather ballooning has been the craze for some time and can be done for less than $1000.  See here.

If flat earth theory is true, only the Brazil-camera (i.e., the one furthest away from the ice-perimeter which flat earthers say the edge of the earth is composed of) will show earth to be a full circle.  The camera facing down on the North Pole rocket would, if flat-earth theory be true, not show a full circle.

Otherwise, if both videos show a  fully circular shape of earth, it would be perfectly reasonable to deduce that earth is shaped like a globe.  How would flat earthers explain a fully circular earth shape on the video recorded from the North Pole or what they believe is the "edge" of earth?  Is the edge of the earth fully circular when seen from above?  LOL.

With all the effort various flat earth societies put into debunking the spherical earth, this challenge would probably cost less than $25,000 in total costs to run, and is not asking too much.

My virgin-birth rebuttal at Patheos

A Catholic blogger wrote a piece on the questionable historicity of the nativity stories.  See here.

I posted the following reply:

barry • a few seconds from nowHold on, this is waiting to be approved by messyinspirations.First, Since the apostles would have been babies at best when the events of Jesus' virgin birth and childhood took place, and because nobody ever dared allege that Mary or Joseph wrote any of the 4 canonical gospels, an assumption of apostolic authorship of the gospels necessarily reduces the nativity stories to hearsay. It doesn't matter if we grant the assumption that Matthew and Luke conducted interviews with Mary and Joseph. The person giving us the facts is not somebody with personal first-hand knowledge, therefore, the nativity stories cannot be anything other than "hearsay".
 Second, skeptics cannot be considered unreasonable for adopting a position also adopted by most Christian scholars; that Mark is the earliest gospel. If the other three gospels came later, then it is reasonable to infer that the reason only two of the later gospels mention the virgin birth is because they are embellishing the earlier story. We naturally expect that between the earliest and later forms of the same story, the latter is more likely the one to contain the embellishments. That simple common sense is not going to disappear merely because the necessary ambiguity and non-absolute nature of the historical evidence enables a fundamentalist apologist to conjure up trifling excuses all day long about why Mark and everybody believed in the virgin birth and simply "didn't wish to repeat it".
 Third, nobody seriously claims that Jesus was referring to actual historical events when giving his parables. So it is also reasonable to deduce that the gospel authors found Jesus' use of fiction-to-support-theology useful and good when applied elsewhere, so that getting people to believe in high Christology was more important than whether the stories intended to facilitate such belief were actually true. It is not true that a stranger will necessarily kidnap your kids...but then again, you create far more good and family safety/cohesion if you just teach your small child 'stranger-danger'. The higher good of family safety trumps the idiot who trifles that "stranger-danger" isn't necessarily true. For that reason, it is reasonable to assume that the gospel authors would have found getting a person to believe the way the authors did, far more important than whether the "facts" that such faith was predicted upon were actually true. That's rather stupid under modern western notions of truth, but we are talking 1st century Palestine, where people 14 years after the fact will swear they saw heaven despite continuing to be unable to tell whether their flying into the sky was physical or spiritual (2nd Cor. 12:1-4). Fundamentalists probably think the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy was written by Moses in 1400 b.c.
 Fourth, fundamentalists have a nasty habit of automatically concluding that if they can think of any non-contradictory "how-it-could-have-been" bare possibility scenario in favor the historicity of the nativity stories, then presto, that bare possibility necessarily and conclusively trumps any possibility set forth by a skeptic. That is inaccurate and irrational: In 20 years of attacking the gospels, I've seen plenty of fundamentalist defenses of the nativity stories. I think TWO of them attempted to show that historicity was more likely than embellishment. once again, nobody wins a historiography debate by merely showing the way they believe does not involve logical contradiction or is founded upon mere possibilities. The person who wins the historical debate is the person who shows that their theory is more likely to be true than the theory they disagree with. Sure, its possible Mark knew of and approved of the virgin birth stories but chose for his own reasons to avoid mentioning them, but that's only a possibility. You will have to show that this is more likely than the skeptical theory that says Mark, with his goal to prove Jesus was the divine son of God, would never "choose to excude" nativity stories that support his intended theme often more powerfully than the pericopes he DID choose to record.
 Fifth, I have formed particularized rebuttals to the particular arguments of Licona, Habermas and W.C.Craig in favor of the resurrection, and if it be reasonable to conclude Jesus did not rise from the dead, then under apostle Paul's logic, we are also reasonable to conclude Christians are false witnesses who are still in their sins (1st Cor. 15:15-17), which, makes it reasonable to deduce that Christians are then under YHWH's death penalty even if we granted that they did genuinely supernatural miracles (Deuteronomy 13:1-5). Since YHWH doesn't think the doing of a miracle automatically infuses the theology taught therein with divine approval, then it doesn't matter if we grant the miracle of Jesus' virgin birth for the sake of argument, we'd still have to ask whether Jesus taught in harmony with the Law. 2,000 years of Jewish opposition to Christianity might have a tendency to render skeptics "reasonable" even if not "infallible" in attacking Christianity.
 Sixth, fundamentalists don't merely claim skeptics are "wrong", they also say we are "fools" or "unreasonable" to deny the historicity of the virgin birth narratives. That being the case, if we wish to disprove their contention, we don't have to prove that the skeptical position is "correct", we only have to prove that the skeptical position is "reasonable". If the fundies can become 'reasonable' by merely positing possibilities, they must extend that luxury to skeptics and concede that skeptical possibilities render the skeptic reasonable.
 Seventh, the biggest problem here is the stupid fundamentalist who is always casting bible inerrancy in terms of accuracy. That is, since Jesus was either virgin born or he wasn't, we should expect the historical evidence to show that he was, or show that he wasn't. This is stupid: Jesus was born 2,000 years ago, and the records of such birth are similarly 1,950 years old. Any historian will tell you that you don't answer questions of ancient history in terms of accuracy, you only answer them in terms of probability. How LIKELY is it that the nativity stories are true? How LIKELY is it that the nativity stories are embellishment?
 Eighth, if any fundamentalist thinks Matthew was written to both Christian and non-Christian Jews, that gives you a pretty good idea of how anti-intellectual Matthew was: he expected non-Christian Jews to be persuaded Jesus was virgin born...because of a story...a story that, given Matthew's likely 60 a.d. date of publication, is thus a story that comes to those non-Christian Jews 30 years after the fact. Think legends take at least a full generation to materialize? Think again, read Acts 21:18-24. And most Christian scholars including Licona and Craig Evans admit that Matthew and John engaged in "artistry" and either invented history or placed historical events in a time that they didn't actually occur, so that there is plenty of scholarly justification to say that the gospel authors' concerns for accuracy were not quite as fanatical as those of modern fundamentalists.

Synoptic Problem # 1: Matthew's dishonest fabrication of Christ-sayings

One of the synoptic parallels seems to naturally resist attempts by inerrantists to explain it away as a case of an author's right to exclude something:

Mark 8

Matthew 16

27 Jesus went out, along with His disciples, to the villages of Caesarea Philippi; and on the way He questioned His disciples, saying to them,   "Who do people say that I am?"  28 They told Him, saying, "John the Baptist; and others say Elijah; but others, one of the prophets."  29 And He continued by questioning them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said to Him, "You are the Christ."     30 And He warned them to tell no one about Him.

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples,  "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"  14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."  15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"  16 Simon Peter answered,  "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."  17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.  18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.  19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."  20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

----------------------------------------------------------

The context for each is identical, so this is certainly not Jesus talking similarly on two separate occasions, this is one singular event being reported by two different authors.

What's more likely?  That Mark knew Peter uttered the longer form of the confession, but knowingly "chose to abbreviate it?  Or that Mark's version of the confession is shorter because the author didn't know about any longer version?  

What is more likely?  Mark knew that Jesus said all that extra stuff about Peter, but "chose to exclude" such profoundly important authority-establishing Christ-sayings, for his own "authorial purpose"?  or

Mark doesn't relate as much as Matthew because Mark had no reason to think Jesus said the things now confined to Matthew's version?

Such a debate involves probability judgments on how close Mark was to Peter, and whether Peter, as a leader, would likely or not likely have considered such a glowing personal endorsement from God-incarnate important enough to preserve and articulate in his preaching tours.

Dr. William Barrick wrote an article in which he tried to explain this as a case of Matthew accurately reporting, and Mark choosing for his own reasons to create a more "abbreviated" account.  See here.

I sent Dr. Barrick the following through his website contact form, which included my email address:

I read your explanation of the synoptic differences on Peter's confession at https://drbarrick.org/the-synoptic-gospels-inerrancy-what-did-peter-say/ 

Since the more expanded version in Matthew supports Peter's authority, and since the apostolic church was divided on Peter's authority (1st Cor. 1:12) can you really say it is "unreasonable" to insist that Mark would never have knowingly excluded such words from his account...and therefore...Mark is not excluding anything, Matthew is guilty of putting in Jesus' mouth words he never spoke?
 I accept Markan priority, and isn't it true that embellishments are more likely to show up in the later retellings, than in the original?
 While my theory might attack inerrancy or gospel reliability, I can't sympathize with that concern since I deny both doctrines.  I deny them because
 a) I feel certain biblical errors are real and not merely apparent; 

b) the bible doesn't teach the "only in the originals" inerrancy-caveat of the CSBI statement, so the specter of the bible extending inspiration or inerrancy to "copies" (i.e., the bible contradicting the CSBI) looms large;  and 

c) the vast majority of conservative Christian scholars accuse Matthew of "toning down" some expressions he copied from Mark...something he would hardly do if he felt Mark's gospel was "inerrant".

------------------------------------

I will wait to see if Dr. Barrick replies.  For now, I'm not seeing any academic or objective justification for the inerrantist to automatically assume that Mark knowingly excluded otherwise important theology merely because such is "possible".

I don't claim the inerrantist theories are impossible, so you are not "defeating" any opposing hypothesis merely because your own theory is "possible".

You are also not "defeating" any opposing hypothesis merely because you can drum up a few supporting evidences for your theory.  You'd have to extend that luxury to anybody whose counter-theory had some supporting evidences, and then you'd endure the illogical outcome that both parties "won" that debate.

What actually happened in ancient history is not determined by mere possibilities, otherwise, both sides of every historical debate would 'win', which is illogical.

What actually happened in ancient history is determined by probabilities (i.e., whose theory to explain the evidence is more probable, or, can both theories boast of equal likelihood?).

That being the case, the Christian apologist is not "defeating" my above-stated theory by simply pointing out that his own counter-theory can be "supported".  Very few positions on biblical matters are without at least some support. No fool thinks all scholars win every biblical debate.

You need to show that your inerrantist-theory is more likely to be true than my skeptical theory that says Matthew invented the longer version.

While I expect apologists to be honest and engage with me in argument, I also expect James Patrick Holding to deceive his followers into thinking a 2 minute cartoon video that feeds his narcissistic lust will conclusively dispose of this allegation of error in the bible.  Yes, that is his idea of "rebuttal".

 "You are wrong, here's the reasons, you could not possibly have any significant rejoinder, so, discussion closed to everybody except those whose comments I choose not to delete."

Doesn't your heart just race with fear at the very thought of disagreeing with such a fearless warrior?  I can barely type, I'm shaking so bad.  LOL

Always remember:  it wouldn't even matter if you the skeptic conceded the miracle of Jesus' resurrection for the sake of argument:  the god of the Christians does not think a person's working a genuinely supernatural miracle automatically justifies their theology, a worker of real miracles can STILL be condemned by God for promoting false theology:

 1 "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,'
 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
 4 "You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.
 5 "But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.
 (Deut. 13:1-5 NAU)

So, obviously, the bible-god disagrees with modern loud-mouth Christian apologists like Frank Turek who insist that if Jesus truly rose from the dead, this miracle automatically proves he is the true Son of God.

Atheism is not inconsistent with the scientific method

Triablogue, never tiring in its quest to prove that all things non-Christian are just so much crazy nonsense, links to an article (here, here)  saying atheism is inconsistent with the scientific method.  The physicist in question is Marcelo Gleiser.

I now respond to the relevant portion of that article.  Genereally, Gleiser does a liberal tap dance, and spends no time whatsoever showing any contrast being basic atheism and the scientific method.  Instead, he notes that some atheists are too extreme and end up embracing scientism.  Let's just say I didn't start shaking with nervousness because the guy attacking atheism was a "prizewinning physicist".  However, I noted that by putting "prizewinning physicist" into the title of the article, the author correctly believed it would hook a lot of people who routinely and happily commit the argument-from-authority fallacy.

Atheism Is Inconsistent with the Scientific Method, Prizewinning Physicist Says

Then there is nothing to debate, because all statements from prizewinning physicists are by logical necessity self-evidently true.  Did you notice how I pissed myself with worry upon reading the title to that article?

Why are you against atheism?
I honestly think atheism is inconsistent with the scientific method. What I mean by that is, what is atheism? It’s a statement, a categorical statement that expresses belief in nonbelief. “I don’t believe even though I have no evidence for or against, simply I don’t believe.” Period. It’s a declaration.

First, I attack the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus by critiquing the arguments from Mike Licona, Gary Habermas and William Lane Craig.  Paul admitted that to falsify Christianity was to turn Christians into false witnesses (1st Corinthians 15:15).  If those arguments are successful, the best the Christian could do to save face would be to invoke the YHWH of the OT (i.e., just because Jesus didn't rise from the dead doesn't mean there's no god). 

That's correct.  But if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, that turns Jesus and Paul into "false witnesses".  Assuming the true god does not inspire falsehood, then the OT YHWH must be presumed to view Christianity as heresy.  Even assuming Jesus and Paul worked genuinely supernatural miracles, the OT still condemns them to the death penalty:

1 "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
 4 "You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.
 5 "But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you. (Deut. 13:1-5 NAU)

 18 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
 19 'It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
 20 'But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.'
 21 "You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'
 22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.   (Deut. 18:18-22 NAU)

The point?  If my arguments against Jesus' resurrection are reasonable, I am equally reasonable to believe that the OT god is just as pissed off at Christians as he is at atheists.  At least we can say the bible doesn't make the death penalty for atheists anywhere near as clear as it does the death penalty for false prophets.

Second, atheism need not be categorical.  Atheism simply means lack of belief in god, or a belief that no god exists.  That's all. Atheism does not dictate the level of dogmatism that an atheist should have about atheism's truth.

Third, "belief in non-belief" was intended to make the reader draw the conclusion that atheism harbors a self-contradictory premise.  Not true.  Atheists do not deny the fact that belief exists.  They simply reject one of those beliefs.  If you deny the existence of the tooth-fairy, are you guilty of belief in non-belief?  No, you are only asserting that one particular belief is unworthy of your assent.

Fourth, atheism is not guilty of "I have no evidence for or against".  You probably deny the existence of the tooth-fairy.  Does her non-existence mean you "have no evidence for or against"?  No.  Rather, your basis for denying the tooth-fairy is clear:  the evidence in favor of her existence is horrifically unpersuasive.  Wel gee, guess why atheists don't believe in 'god'.

But in science we don’t really do declarations.

That's right.  And as shown above, atheism is simply a belief about a proposition, and like science, atheism doesn't dictate the level of dogmatism with which atheists should consider the proposition true.  Scientists disagree with each other all the time on whether some proposition is true, false, better supported than others, etc.  Atheism doesn't demand that its followers be fanatical about it.  it isn't like there is some magical book out there in support of atheism which says "be ye transformed by the renewing of your brain" (Romans 12:2) ..."blessed are they who have not seen and yet have disbelieved" (John 20:29), "whatsoever is not of disbelief is criminal", (Romans 14:23), nor do atheists think the only way they can better themselves is to gather in groups on Sunday with other people who agree that one magic book has all the answers to life, etc, etc., and they usually don't hurl the worst possible curses at other atheists merely for disagreeing with them about certain beliefs (Galatians 1:8-9).

We say, “Okay, you can have a hypothesis, you have to have some evidence against or for that.” And so an agnostic would say, look, I have no evidence for God or any kind of god (What god, first of all? The Maori gods, or the Jewish or Christian or Muslim God? Which god is that?) But on the other hand, an agnostic would acknowledge no right to make a final statement about something he or she doesn’t know about. “The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,” and all that.

One reason I am a "strong" atheist is because the word "god" is, like 'spirit', incoherent.  it refers to nothing demonstrably real, and produces about as much good as does debating the concept "creation from nothing".
Since Christians refuse to believe their god can be physical, they cannot refute atheism by speculating the existence of advanced space aliens with god-like powers.  If they wish to say God can be physical, I would not be as opposed to that as I am to the idea of an "immaterial" god.

This positions me very much against all of the “New Atheist” guys

I would agree that there are serious problems with some of the fodder thrown around by Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins.  But the "new atheists" are not necessarily consistent with the basic definition of atheism.  Atheism doesn't recommend publishing books about how religion poisons everything, or books on how matter not guided by any intelligence still ends up becoming more complexly organized when there are certain types of energy inputs.  Atheism is just atheism.  How far you want to take the concept, is, like Christianity, up to nobody but you.

—even though I want my message to be respectful of people’s beliefs and reasoning, which might be community-based, or dignity-based, and so on. And I think obviously the Templeton Foundation likes all of this, because this is part of an emerging conversation.

yup, there's money to be made off the fact that people disagree about religion.

It’s not just me; it’s also my colleague the astrophysicist Adam Frank, and a bunch of others, talking more and more about the relation between science and spirituality.

That's your first problem:  Unless you define "spirituality" in material physical terms, you'll be talking about something that has no demonstrable tether to the real world.  Making one wonder why human beings are so dependent on their 5 senses (which detect nothing but physical realities).  Something tells me that at the end of the day, paying more attention to physically sensed realities is probably going to be better than paying attention to "non-physical" stuff. 

So, a message of humility, open-mindedness and tolerance.

Sorry, I cannot be openminded to the possibility that an incoherent concept is an actual reality.

Other than in discussions of God, where else do you see the most urgent need for this ethos?

You know, I’m a “Rare Earth” kind of guy. I think our situation may be rather special, on a planetary or even galactic scale. So when people talk about Copernicus and Copernicanism—the ‘principle of mediocrity’ that states we should expect to be average and typical, I say, “You know what? It’s time to get beyond that.”

No, I argue that the universe is infinite in size, and therefore, the earth is about as unique as a grain of sand on a beach.  See here.  The idea that there is a limit the amount of 'stuff' in the universe is just plain foolish.  In one of my rebuttals to Frank Turek, I quoted:

"There are a dizzying 2 trillion galaxies in the universe, up to 20 times more than previously thought, astronomers reported on Thursday."

See my full rebuttal to Turek here.

When you look out there at the other planets (and the exoplanets that we can make some sense of), when you look at the history of life on Earth, you will realize this place called Earth is absolutely amazing.

We naturally cease to be amazed at x if we have reason to believe x is very common.

And maybe, yes, there are others out there, possibly—who knows, we certainly expect so—but right now what we know is that we have this world, and we are these amazing molecular machines capable of self-awareness, and all that makes us very special indeed.

Life forms naturally prioritize their own importance.  To do otherwise is to perish, which is the exact opposite of the body's tendency to try and continue living.

And we know for a fact that there will be no other humans in the universe; there may be some humanoids somewhere out there, but we are unique products of our single, small planet’s long history.

As an atheist, I argue that we have a theory of human worth superior to that of Christians:  most people agree that worth arises from rarity.  The more rare or unique something is, the more we either value it in money-terms, or desire to have it in our possession.  Many collectors of antiques would not wish to sell.  In this atheist universe, yes, that which makes up you is probably never going to happen again.  That's how you draw legitimacy and purpose from temporal significance, even admitting that it doesn't sound as yummy and exciting as drawing legitimacy and purpose from ultimate significance. No fool avoids going to the store to buy a candy bar merely because this would not be significant on an ultimate or cosmic scale.  Every single one of us recognizes how important it is that we often look away from the clouds and make sure we aren't driving the car off the edge of a cliff.

The point is, to understand modern science within this framework is to put humanity back into kind of a moral center of the universe, in which we have the moral duty to preserve this planet and its life with everything that we’ve got, because we understand how rare this whole game is and that for all practical purposes we are alone.

Except that this does not follow unless you care about future generations of human beings, and we can manifest such care in ways that do not involve taking care of the dirt.  I care about future people enough to write rebuttals to false fundamentalist religion, but not enough to convert my car from gas to electric.

For now, anyways. We have to do this! This is a message that I hope will resonate with lots of people, because to me what we really need right now in this increasingly divisive world is a new unifying myth. I mean “myth” as a story that defines a culture. So, what is the myth that will define the culture of the 21st century? It has to be a myth of our species, not about any particular belief system or political party.

That means you refuse to see Christianity as true, which means Triablogue's posting the link to your article indicates Triablogue has gone liberal.  Go ahead and let the devil babysit your kids.

How can we possibly do that? Well, we can do that using astronomy, using what we have learned from other worlds, to position ourselves and say, “Look, folks, this is not about tribal allegiance, this is about us as a species on a very specific planet that will go on with us—or without us.” I think you know this message well.

The stupid presuppostionalists at Triablogue would disagree and say you aren't engaged in 'true' learning if you attempt to take in naturalistic knowledge absent a specifically Christian philosophical foundation.

I do. But let me play devil’s advocate for a moment, only because earlier you referred to the value of humility in science. Some would say now is not the time to be humble, given the rising tide of active, open hostility to science and objectivity around the globe. How would you respond to that?

This is of course something people have already told me: “Are you really sure you want to be saying these things?” And my answer is yes, absolutely. There is a difference between “science” and what we can call “scientism,” which is the notion that science can solve all problems.

Exactly, and I've never heard of any atheist who thought science can solve all problems.  Humanity, being what it is, does not appear likely to ever evolve to a state where they no longer disagree with each other.   So I see no basis for thinking science can solve all problems.  And the universe being infinite in size is definitely something that science will never be able to "solve", since it takes limited human beings to measure the universe, and we can never be knowledgeable of everything existence has to offer.

To a large extent, it is not science but rather how humanity has used science that has put us in our present difficulties. Because most people, in general, have no awareness of what science can and cannot do. So they misuse it, and they do not think about science in a more pluralistic way. So, okay, you’re going to develop a self-driving car? Good! But how will that car handle hard choices, like whether to prioritize the lives of its occupants or the lives of pedestrian bystanders? Is it going to just be the technologist from Google who decides? Let us hope not!

Now you know why I agree with Joseph Tainter that because America incessantly insists on becoming more and more complex, American society is certain to collapse.

snip.

Wow.  I've suddenly stopped being an atheist.  And all because a "prizewinning" physicist thinks atheism inconsistent with the scientific method.  LOL.  All he did was prove the admitted stupidity of certain extreme forms of atheism that misrepresent science's abilities.

Answering AnoyedPinoy's objections

AnoyedPinoy, ("AP") for whatever reason, cannot resist mistaking quantity for quality, and telling himself that Christianity's truthfulness can be proven because of the trainloads of evidence that it is possible to post onto other people's blogs.

I've warned him for the last time to stop doing this and to limit his replies here to single points...since narrowing the issues down that far works wonders at preventing deceived apologists from wiggling out of an argument.  If you doubt that, ask yourself how many liars are cheerful at the thought of being grilled on the witness stand by an experienced prosecutor.  

For example, while 

"how do you know the bible is the word of God" 

is rather easy for an apologist to tackle,  a more nuanced challenge can cause apologists to have a bad day.  Consider:

"what rule of hermeneutics am I violating when I use Galatians 1:1, 11-12 

to clarify Paul's unqualified "received" in 1st Corinthians 15:3?"

or

"aren't you putting just as much faith in mere human tradition as Roman
Catholics do,when you treat the historical evidence in favor of the Protestant
NT canonas if it revealed God's intentions equally as strongly as biblical evidence?"

I trust that the reader is satisfied that I correctly refute AP on this point:  forcing the questions at issue to be narrowly drawn dramatically increases the probability that the person in error will not be able to save face when their errors are exposed.

However, somebody may fall into the same error AP does, and perhaps think that because AP posted all that crap here, it "refutes" whatever i believe unless I offer a point by point rebuttal.

I now respond to most of AP's assertions.  Hopefully AP will learn to argue more succinctly so that the reader will be more easily enabled to detect which of us is in the wrong:

ANNOYED PINOYNovember 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM
It seems a reoccurring theme in all your blogs is about about "reasonableness".

That's because many prominent Christian apologists, like Frank Turek, overstate their case and insist either
a) the Christian interpretation of something is the only reasonable one, or
b) the atheist viewpoint is unreasonable.

Those apologists are all high on crack.  They don't have a robust understanding of "reasonable", they think it is a synonym for "biblical".  That would most especially be true for the Calvinists, the presuppositionalists and mostly the Van Tilians.  Jeff Durbin and Sye Ten Bruggencate are examples of the latter.  Steve Hays might deny being in the same group, but his fanatical committment to bible inerracy makes it reasonable to lump him into the group anyway.  He's still going to say any concept is crazy unless it harmonizes with the bible.

So, in answer to that I've written the following.
----//If even Calvinists can disagree with each other over what the bible is teaching, then ----apparently learning hermenutics is an exercise in futility. //
That seems to assume that the Bible has to have been written so that every reader would come the exact same conclusions.

No, it only assumes what is plainly obvious, that even if somebody earned advanced degrees in biblical theology, or took a course in "hermeneutics", this does precisely nothing to ensure that the way they interpret the bible is "correct".  They are prevented from babyish errors, perhaps, but that's all. And if you foolishly insist that "bible inerrancy" be used as a herrmeneutic, you further harm the whole purpose of interpretation.

This is a powerful argument, since you refuse to say that the only reason 2 Christians disagree on bible interpretation is because one of them is unsaved or insincere or has unconfessed sin, etc.  You know full well that equally saved, equally sincere, equally smart, equally Christ-walking Christians can disagree with each other, for decades, lifetimes and centuries, about how to interpret something in the bible.  Since at least one such person in every such debate logically has to be in the wrong, they become a supporting evidence that a Christian's attempt to learn hermeneutics will never suffice to make them see actual biblical truth.  If there is any person who actually does have the correct interpretation, they cannot demonstrate they have it.  Apparently, there's nothing more special about the bible than there is in any other similarly ancient piece of theological sophistry:  the meaning of all those other ancient religious tracts can also be endlessly debated.

But God didn't inspire the Bible to be completely understood upon first reading.

I was talking about Christians, who have been reading the bible for years, still disagreeing with each other.  Nobody said anything about correctly interpreting the whole thing at the first reading.

Or even multiple reading throughout a lifetime.

The irony is that many Christians, all of them Arminian to one degree or other, would disagree, and say God always desires the genuinely born-again, sin-confessing, light-walking sincere Christian to correctly understand whatever part of the bible that they ask God to guide their understanding of.  Therefore, while my argument might not faze YOU, a Calvinist, my argument about why this 'god' doesn't do for us today what he allegedly did in biblical times and MAKE us believe either infallibly or with forceful presentation, remains a legitimate rebuttal to the Arminians...who stand a chance of taking my argument, bypassing Calvinism and other modes of Christianity, and going straight to skeptical jail, don't collect $200.

I hope everybody goes to jail.

The subjects involved are too lofty/august/transcendent to exhaust the topics in a single book of any size.

That's funny, I thought Christians had a "holy spirit" who not only "teaches" them (John 14:26) but CAUSES them and others to understand or else do and believe whatever he wants them to do and believe (Exodus 4:21, Numbers 22:35, 38, 1st Kings 22:19-23, Ezra 1:1,  Jeremiah 20:9, Acts 9:3-8, Acts 16:14, Revelation 17:17)?  See especially Ezekiel 38-39, where God characterizes a future army's attack on Israel as the army being a fish on a hook, and god is drawing them against Israel.   If God then chooses whether or not he will cause a person to correctly discern truth, he can hardly blame those whom he wishes to keep ignorant.  But because the biblical answer is "who are you to answer back to god" (Romans 9:20), I'm pretty sure this particular fictional character is merely a sadistic lunatic.

Furthermore, the fact that Christians have disagreed on biblical theology for so many centuries sounds more like a case of the bible making ambiguous statements about unprovable premises, another justification for skeptics to give the bible the middle finger and consider earning a living and raising a family more important than trifling with somebody on the internet about things nobody can ever nail down with any reasonable certainty...like god's "will"...a thing Christians could not be in more disagreement about, despite the presumed authenticity of their salvation, sincerity of purpose, and respect for context, genre and bible "inerrancy".

And contrary to your predictable excuse, no, you don't do anything by invoking god's mysterious ways or "well maybe god...", except demonstrate that you have lost the debate.  Since heretics appeal to such excuses and you find them unpersuasive, logic dictates that YOU not be allowed to benefit from this cop-out either.

Hume said it best:  Commit it to the flames, for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion.

Morever, it's providentially inspired in such a way that it takes the Spirit of God to understand it, perceive it spiritually and believe it.

That's the same excuse non-Calvinists use to explain the "error" of Calvinism when they are asked how they explain that Calvinists can be true Christains yet adopt that heresy.  Many Arminians insist that Calvinism cannot quality as heterodox, it is purely unorthodox and is worthy dividing fellowship over.  Remember Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel?.  Apparently, "you just aren't spiritual" is a false excuse that could be employed by anybody to get away from having to actually justify their bible-interpretation on the merits.

To those who have spiritual eyes and ears.

How conveniently useless to argumentation: see above.

But yes, this is how apostle Paul and Jesus thought, so there's no compelling reason to distinguish them from typical cultists and fanatics who employ the same excuse in the effort to facilitate a fallacious-yet-useful "us v them" herd-mentality in their group.  That kind of mentality is intentionally designed to shelter one from the rigors of logic and argumentation.  You don't believe in Jesus because you aren't spiritual.  Quick, easy, and let's get back to saying grace over dinner for 5 hours because the infinite God is worthy of so much more.

Just as Jesus spoke in parables not to elucidate, but to veil His meaning [Mark 4:11ff.; Matt. 13:10ff.; Luke 8:10ff.; John 12:39ff.].

That doesn't get rid of the problem, he also told the disciples to reveal whatever hidden things he formerly told them. Matthew 10:27.  See also Matthew 28:20, the part of the great commission most Christians miss.  So Jesus' intention to veil his teachings before the crucifixion isn't supposed to be used to justify continued veiling after he issued the Great Commission.  But I suppose your presupposition of biblical inerrancy will motivate you to simply combine your theory with something apostle Paul said, and presto, look how many rainbows we can created by drawing with all the crayons in the box at the same time.

And in such a way that as people fallibly read it down through the centuries God's providential plan in & for HIStory unfolds as He predetermined it.

Why should anybody find study of biblical hermeneutics as helping them to figure out how to avoid misinterpreting the bible? After all, you will not credit their getting something right in the bible to their study, you will simply say God predestined them to get it right. If they get something wrong in the bible, you will not credit this to their misunderstanding of hermeneutics, or the limited nature of the evidence, you will conclude God predestined them to get it wrong.  Your problem still exists:  We don't have to worry about anything, ever, because nothing can possibly happen except what God has infallibly predestined...including sin.  That's Calvinism, stripped of all the car-salesman pitch that James White constantly smothers it with.  See Steve Hays' admission that God secretly wills ALL disobedience to his revealed will. Link. Which can only mean that when God gets angry over somebody's sin, he is getting angry that they did exactly what he wanted, when he wanted, where he wanted, why he wanted and how he wanted.

If any human being secretly willed for his subjects to disobey his revealed will, we'd call that idiot a sadist.  You will say human analogies break down with God, but perhaps they do because god is like every other concept for which human logic is insufficient; both are false theories.  yoru god's allege being "inscrutible" and "incomprehensible" might actually suggest that literally NOTHING about him can be reasonably deduced...whether that threatens your sense of theological security or not.

I've snipped the bible quotations you posted.  Probably because your god infallibly predestined me to...which means I didn't have a choice...which means the only way God could still blame me for failing to deviate from infallible predestination decree is for him to be a sadistic lunatic.

And then you want me to think the only 'true' love is the love from this god?

ANNOYED PINOYNovember 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM
Moreover, it's difficult for ANY document on an important and involved topic to be written in such a way that multiple interpretations are precluded.

Not when you have an all-powerful God who allegedly has the ability to MAKE people believe whatever he wants them to believe. Exodus 4:21, Numbers 22:35, 38, 1st Kings 22:19-23, Ezra 1:1,  Jeremiah 20:9, Acts 9:3-8, Acts 16:14, Revelation 17:17.  Your objection is frivolous; your Calvinist god can make ANYBODY understand ANYTHING he wishes for them to understand.  So the problem of why equally saved equally sincere Christians disagree for centuries on how to interpret biblical phrases remains.  Of course, you offer one solution:  God causes everything, including misunderstanding, but you have to remember that I also preach my skeptical arguments to Arminians, that is:  some of the power of my skeptical arguments draws from presumptions about God that are Arminian (i.e., god wants everybody to get saved and avoid teaching heresy).

Including non-religious documents. Even an error free book on math can be misunderstood by humans.

Not if the author the power to make humans correctly understand it.

Also, other things contribute to differing interpretations like:
level of intelligence/aptitude;
level of education;
knowledge of cultural background;
human traditions and presuppositions brought to the text;
amount of time studying the document. A man who has studied the U.S. Constitution (or the Bible) for 50 years will understand it better than someone who has only studied it for 2 years.;
opportunity and access to resources and available time can hinder people. For example, a simple missionary in the 17th century didn't have access to 21st century Logos Bible software; archaeological and textual discoveries etc.;
degree of sinfulness, rebellion and attitudes brought to the text;

But since as a Calvinist you are forced to believe that all this misunderstanding is ULTIMATELY caused by God's infallible predestining decree, all you are doing with the above is wasting time on secondary causation.  Truth is not served solely by focus on secondary causation.  And once again, my skeptical position speaks mostly to Arminian Christians and their assumption that God wants everybody to get saved and avoid heresy.

As Blaise Pascal wrote in his Pensées:

God predestined me to snip your quote.

ANNOYED PINOYNovember 25, 2019 at 9:35 PM
If the Christian God exists, then it's not reasonable to read the Bible, and to expect it to have been written as if the Christian God were the one on trial.

That IF is so big that I deny its legitimacy.

Rather, it's reasonable to expect it to be inspired as if we're on trial and being judged by our attitude toward the God behind the text and the subjects addressed in the book.

But only "if" the Christian god exists.  That hypothetical is too extreme.
snip

ANNOYED PINOYNovember 25, 2019 at 9:47 PM
And all that sets aside the positive evidence for God and the weakness against belief in the Christian God.
Evidence for God
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2016/12/im-going-to-list-and-summarize-what-i.html
Required reading for atheists
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2019/11/required-reading-for-atheists.html
Making a case for Christianity
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2017/12/making-case-for-christianity.html
A case for Christ
http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2019/01/a-case-for-christ.html
Common Objections to Christianity from Skeptics
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/qa_steve_hays.html
Book Reviews of Recent Atheist Authors by Christian Apologists https://misclane.blogspot.com/2013/09/book-reviews-of-recent-atheist-authors.html

That's old news to me.  But more importantly none of it overcomes my interpretation of the biblical evidence Christians typically cite in favor of the historicity of Jesus' resurrection.

That's important because if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, he was a false prophet at best, and his followers who composed the NT book certainly were false witnesses, which would then mean the only thing you gain by defaulting to the OT YHWH is his calling for your death for having followed a worker of miracles who wasn't preaching the truth.  Deuteronomy 13 and 18.

Hopefully, then, you can understand why I agree with Paul that Christianity's veracity cannot be rescued if Jesus didn't rise from the dead. You lose the resurrection, you lose the significance of Calvinism, debating god's sovereignty, refuting the Arminians, the transcendental argument and your motive to post trainloads of old hat to other people's blogs.

I posted the above things because I'm concerned for your soul.

But only because God infallibly predestined you to care.  If God predestined you to be apathetic toward my soul, you would be.  Hence, Calvinist theology steals the soul out of human compassion by turning everything into robots.  Your caring attitude thus isn't really your own individual creation.  That's not a true friend.

If you are concerned about my soul, you might consider answering my objections to the historicity of Jesus resurrection...like the fact that 1st Corinthians 15:3-4 is not historical evidence of early resurrection belief among the apostles, because it is not a 'creed' in the first place.  And numerous other objections.

Not because I'm trying to overwhelm you with information.

I'm sorry, Mr. Pinoy, but you've demonstrated, at your own blog and here, that you do indeed happily mistake quantity for quality.  You simply do not like being required to limit your replies to singular issues.  I suspect it is because you realize that when the issues are narrowed, it makes it much more difficult for you to escape a rebuttal.  That is exactly what happened when you tried to argue narrowed issues of bible inerrancy with me.

If you wish to prove me wrong, I'll start a new blog piece where I confront you, one point at a time, with my objections to the resurrection of Jesus, and we'll just see how long you last.

I'm just trying to fill in some of the lacunae in your knowledge.

Then God must have infallibly predestined you to be misinformed...the material you linked me to is stuff I already know and stuff I've already rebutted in the draft for my book, not yet published.

And in hopes that you might eventually come to embrace the Savior as your own hope and joy one day.

Except that because Jesus didn't preach hell-fire to Gentiles, I have a very reasonable basis to accuse the later NT authors of expanding his message far beyond what he intended, and therefore, your Jesus probably doesn't concern himself with becoming my daily lord anymore than he concerned himself to be the daily lord of the Gentiles he interacted with.  For example:

 33 And the demons came out of the man and entered the swine; and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.
 34 When the herdsmen saw what had happened, they ran away and reported it in the city and out in the country.
 35 The people went out to see what had happened; and they came to Jesus, and found the man from whom the demons had gone out, sitting down at the feet of Jesus, clothed and in his right mind; and they became frightened.
 36 Those who had seen it reported to them how the man who was demon-possessed had been made well.
 37 And all the people of the country of the Gerasenes and the surrounding district asked Him to leave them, for they were gripped with great fear; and He got into a boat and returned.
 38 But the man from whom the demons had gone out was begging Him that he might accompany Him; but He sent him away, saying,
 39 "Return to your house and describe what great things God has done for you." So he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him.
 (Lk. 8:33-39 NAU)

What I'm not seeing is any sign that Jesus wanted that guy to do what you think Jesus wants today's Gentiles to do:  study the scriptures, or "get saved".  Jesus exorcised the demons out of that man.  That's not evidence that he "got saved".  That man sat at the feet of Jesus.  You have no fucking clue what Jesus and that man talked about.  That's not evidence that he "got saved".  But since in context Jesus wants that man to go away, we can be god-damn sure that Jesus rejects MacArthur's "lordship salvation" doctrine, a doctrine that Calvinists tightly embrace.

The sad fact is that Jesus was nowhere near the loudmouth today's Calvinists are in stuffing the scriptures down the throats of Gentiles, or warning them about hell fire.

So you might consider that the only reason you are concerned for my soul is because you have allowed later NT authors to pervert the original gospel of Jesus.  And of course I assume you know that I designate apostle Paul as a heretic...and I think using bible inerrancy as a hermeneutic does little more than facilitate misunderstanding.