Showing posts with label creationism. Show all posts
Showing posts with label creationism. Show all posts

Wednesday, October 17, 2018

Cold Case Christianity: How the Philosophy of Infinite Regress Demonstrates the Universe Had a Beginning

This is my reply to a video by J. Warner Wallace:


 In this clip from J. Warner Wallace’s longer talk on the existence of God from cosmological evidence (based on his book, God’s Crime Scene), J. Warner describes how the philosophy of infinite regress demonstrates that time had a beginning and, therefore, ads to the case for a universe with a beginning.
(Wallace is wising up to his inability to prove things: he has disabled comments for this video at YouTube.  Apparently, apologetics has more to do with unobstructed preaching to the choir and less to do with answering critics.  Wallace knows about my counter-apologtics blog, and to my knowledge has done precisely NOTHING to attempt any answers, or interact with me).
 
It wasn't necessary to watch this video, the underlined portion above, showing what Wallace was arguing for, constitutes a logically impossibility, which would remain a fatal flaw regardless of what Wallace had to say about the problems of infinite regression.  Such fatal flaw can be demonstrated by comparing the Christian truth claim with other normative truth claims that are couched in grammatically equivalent terms:

Billy played baseball
Dorothy ate cereral
God created time

Notice: all verbs, and therefore those here (i.e., played, ate, created) presuppose time to already be in existence before the action they describe takes place.  Hence:

There was a time before Billy played baseball.
There was a time before Dorothy ate cereal.
There was a time before God created time (!?)

Since all three sentences are grammatically the same, whatever is logically true of the verbs in the first two, must also be true of the verb in the third.

First, "time before time" is clearly illogical because it is question-begging.  You may as well talk about the water before water.

Second, every biblical description of heaven depicts events there as taking place in no less temporal progression than they do on earth, suggesting that the bible leaves plenty of room for the supposition that God was doing things, one after the other, before creating this universe. If he was, then 'time' also limits god.

Finally, 'time' is not a fundamental component of reality, it is merely a fictional measuring device we invented to record the fluctuating distances between planetary bodies.  That's why at the same moment it is 3 p.m. in California, it's not 3 p.m. in Paris.  There is no such thing as seconds, minutes or hours, the only place they exist is in clocks.  "time" is nothing but a word that we use to help express our contentions about things past, present and future.  The idea that "eternity" is some type of different dimension where God views past and present in some unfathomable all-at-once "now" is pure fundamentalist Christian hocus-pocus, it cannot be sustained from the bible anyway, and is thus a concept worthy of nothing but ridicule.

For all these reasons, the concept of creating time itself is sufficiently incoherent and problematic as to reasonably justify those atheists who laugh at the whole business, who also demand the creationist come up with something slightly less convoluted to 'explain' why a god is 'necessary' to explain reality.

 Of course, Wallace has jumped on the Big Bang bandwagon, and will thus pretend that God's creation of time is a completely different thing from actions we engage in on earth.  Not so.  The force of my rebuttal is contained in the grammatical realities that I pointed out.  If you wish to say God created time, you must either 

a)  accept that this is a logically contradictory idea, or 

b) insist that verbs for god's action are not governed by the grammatical realities that govern the verbs describing human action (but you'd have to justify that, and blind appeal to God being so much more wonderful and unlike anything is not going to suffice), or 

c)  insist that human language is incapable of coherently expressing this wonderful truth, in which case you just admitted that the language of Genesis 1:1 is equally incapable of expressing such alleged wondrous truth.

Tuesday, May 29, 2018

Cold Case Christianity: Dear Mr. Wallace, luck does not constitute "miracle"

This is my reply to an article by J. Warner Wallace entitled


In a recent incident in Tennessee, a woman claimed her purse and wallet were used miraculously by God. As the woman and her husband were pulling into the parking lot of their apartment, they heard “popping” sounds. After getting out of their car, they saw several bullet holes on one side of the vehicle. A few minutes later, the woman discovered a hole in her purse and a bullet lodged in her wallet. When reporting the incident to the press, she told them she believed God used her wallet as a shield: “Just by the grace of God. It`s a miracle to keep me or him from getting hit.”

When I was an atheist, I would roll my eyes at statements like this.
You were correct to do so.  In this case, the women is not reporting a phenomenon for which it is difficult to find a naturalistic explanation.  She is reporting something that is on the order of "luck".  I've also been shot at and managed to avoid the bullet. 
In my mind, Christians were always attributing accidents, coincidences, and chance events to the “miraculous” work of God.
That wasn't just in your mind.  They do.  If they lose $50 at the casino, God must have wanted them to do without that $50.  If they win $50, surely the creator of the universe wanted them to have the extra $50.  There's no talking to committed religious freaks like you, who insist God is the basis of all "luck", but who are still unwilling to embrace 5-point Calvinism.
I rejected such nonsense. I was a “philosophical naturalist,” and as such, I believed that every event (including this one in Tennessee) could be explained with purely “naturalistic” explanations. The bullets that entered the car took a trajectory that was dictated by the material properties of the vehicle and the laws of physics. Nothing more. The bullet just happened to land in the woman’s purse. Unusual – perhaps – but no big deal, and certainly not an act of God.

Now, many years later, I’ve reconsidered my position.
Why?  Do you suppose that perhaps something more than naturalistic laws were responsible for the causes that led to the bullets finding their way into her purse?  How much time do you suppose a non-Christian should spend checking up on this story?  5 minutes?  One hour?  Several days?  Your Fox News source even admits
The woman, who was not identified, was on her way back from the hospital with her husband on Thursday, when the couple suddenly heard gunshots.
 You don't understand why a skeptic would have difficulties believing the miracle explanation provided by an anonymous source?

Your Fox News source has her being intentionally ambiguous about whether or not the bullets that hit her purse would have hit her had the purse not been in the way:
"I was like, 'Oh my God, honey! Here's another hole that came through my purse!'" she told the station. The woman's bag was sitting in the back seat, and she credits the location with possibly saving her life.
But most people would expect that if the woman wishes to make a miracle-connection, she would provide a bit more detail, such as her body being in line with the purse, so that the purse did, IN FACT, prevent the bullets from hitting her.
I admit that I also believed in miracles – of a sort – when I was an atheist. Dictionary.com provides the following definition of a “miracle”:

“An effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.”

They also provide this definition of “supernatural”:

“Of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.”

Given the way these terms are defined, nearly everyone believes in one kind of miracle or another, including those who reject the existence of a supernatural God. Even as an atheist, I too accepted the reasonable reality of at least one supernatural event.

I embraced the Standard Cosmological Model offered by physicists to explain the origin of the universe. It is known as the “Big Bang Theory,” and it proposes that all space, time, and matter (the attributes we typically think of when describing the natural realm) had a beginning.
That's where you went wrong.  The Big Bang is total bullshit.  The universe and matter have always existed.  But regardless, most physicists who accept the Big Bang, do not think it points to god. 

And the bigger problem for you is that the originally intended audience of Genesis 1-2 were mostly illiterate Israelite farm hands.  Moses' story of creation neither expresses nor implies some giant cosmic explosion, and it is highly unlikely the original Israelites under Moses would have read such a concept into the text, or added an explosion to the story in their mind as they heard a storyteller speaking the story to them.  If you must be a Christian before being a detective or scholar, you need to worry about how the Big Bang contradicts your own bible, before you pretend that it refutes atheism.

And one of fundamentalist Christianity's most vocal "creationist" think tanks, ICR, who require their members to uphold biblical inerrancy, entirely deny the scientific validity of the Big Bang theory.

Everything came into existence from nothing at a point in the distant past.
That's illogical.  Zero wouldn't have the function in math that it does, if it could ever produce anything.

"From nothing" is nonsense.  Yes, the Copenhagen school of quantum mechanics says virtual particles can appear from nothing and disappear out of existence, but that's just one school.  There are several schools of quantum mechanics, and not all of them espouse indeterminism.
I accepted this model of the universe’s origin, even though it presented me with a problem.

If all space, matter and time came into existence at some point in the past, whatever caused them to leap into existence cannot (by definition) be spatial, temporal or material.
That's also foolish, the explosion of the singularity in the alleged big bang did not create dimensions.  Dimensions were the necessary implication of there suddenly being at least two bits of matter separated by some distance.  You may as well say time didn't exist until clocks were invented.   Worse, you posit the existence of the "immaterial" by denying the cause was material, when in fact you couldn't demonstrate the existence of any non-physical thing to save your life.

The same with your "temporal" word: you are implying that what set off the big bang set it off from within the realm of eternity, when in fact your own bible represents the passing of time in heaven no less than it represents time passing on earth, in fact, it always presents the acts of God as having a before and an after, up there in heaven:
 24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven, (Gen. 19:24 NAU)
What?  Was God throwing down fireballs on Sodom from the realm of eternity, and somewhere along the way down, those fireballs switched dimensions and continued coming down in the realm of time?  No, the author, obviously not concerned about biblical inerracy or systematic theology, felt free to talk about God as if his abode were in the same dimension, just higher in the sky, as man's.
In other words, the cause of the natural universe does not possess any of the attributes of the natural realm (i.e. space, time or matter). See the dilemma? My naturalistic belief in “Big Bang Cosmology” required an extra-natural “Big Banger.”
Then perhaps you were a stupid atheist and you didn't know what any fool knows, that plenty of scientists who accept the big bang, do not think it implies god.  You simply characterize it that way because of how easily such a childish view can be sustained (i.e., the bumper sticker "The Big Bang Theory:  God spoke and *bang*, it happened").   Like the toddler who thinks an invisible person causes the car to move forward.
The non-spatial, a-temporal, immaterial first-cause of the universe clearly fits within the definition of “supernatural” we’ve described. The cause of the universe is, by definition, “above or beyond what is natural” (in that it does not possess the attributes of the natural realm) and cannot be explained “by natural law.”

After becoming a Christian, I eventually wrote about this in a book called God’s Crime Scene: A Cold-Case Detective Examines the Evidence for a Divinely Created Universe. The beginning of the universe from nothing is actually evidence for the existence of an all-powerful, non-spatial, a-temporal, immaterial God.
Dream on.  Being omniscient or "all-powerful" is refuted by the question "Can God make a box so heavy that he cannot lift it?".  People make boxes too heavy to lift every day, so doing this does not require a logical contradiction, therefore, if God can do all logically possible things, he should be able to make a box so heavy that he cannot lift it.  Furthermore, God regrets his own choice to make mankind in Genesis 6:6-7, and since you think everything else in the immediate context there is real and not figurative, you cannot escape this problem by pretending that God's remorse is mere anthropomorphism.  The originally intended audience for that passage were illiterate Israelites around 1300 b.c.  They would have no contextual, historical or linguistic reason to think God's regretting his own prior choices was any less literal in v. 6 than the wickedness of men mentioned in v. 5, or Noah's finding favor with God in v. 8.

And the more you talk about things non-spatial and a-temporal, the more you justify the skeptic to write you off as babbling incoherently. I don't listen to such talk any more than I listen to desperate idiot scientists who talk about "dark matter" or how worm-holes area shorter distance between two points than a straight line is.
The most spectacular and impressive miracle recorded in the Bible is recorded in the opening line of Genesis, Chapter 1: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Christians believe the beginning of the universe was a supernatural event.
And Christians like you add a gigantic "explosion" to the biblical record of creation, which the record itself neither expresses nor implies, and explosion other inerrantist creationist Christian scholars insist is wholly fictitious and unbiblical.  But you live in a day where religion is dismissed if it doesn't account for scientific truth.  So apparently you've chose to adulterate the biblical creation account just to make the bible sound more impressive to modern day people.
As a skeptic investigating the claims of Christianity, I eventually had to admit that I also accepted the origin of the universe as a supernatural, miraculous event, and if God had the power necessary to create everything from nothing, he could probably pull off the miracles described in the New Testament. In fact, He might even be able to use a wallet to stop a bullet.
But the claimant didn't claim anything that couldn't be accounted for by naturalistic explanations.  She didn't claim the bullet bounced off her skin, for example, or that it created a fatal wound which immediately healed because she immediately prayed over it.

What's next, Wallace?  If a Christian credits God with their winning the lottery, will you write a blog piece asking why we shouldn't believe them?

Why don't you ascribe to God's miraculous doings, the opposite type of events, that is, where poverty and injury are created?

For example, when a foreign power invades and they rape the women and beat the children to death.  After all, Isaiah 13 says it is God who will stir up the pagan Medes to do all these things to the Hebrews.

Here's the entire chapter for your convenience.  Maybe someday you can tell the Christians why it is that you refuse to speak as bluntly about God's causing evil as the biblical prophets did.  Common sense says you so refuse because you don't agree with what those prophets taught:
 1 The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.
 2 Lift up a standard on the bare hill, Raise your voice to them, Wave the hand that they may enter the doors of the nobles.
 3 I have commanded My consecrated ones, I have even called My mighty warriors, My proudly exulting ones, To execute My anger.
 4 A sound of tumult on the mountains, Like that of many people! A sound of the uproar of kingdoms, Of nations gathered together! The LORD of hosts is mustering the army for battle.
 5 They are coming from a far country, From the farthest horizons, The LORD and His instruments of indignation, To destroy the whole land.
 6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
 7 Therefore all hands will fall limp, And every man's heart will melt.
 8 They will be terrified, Pains and anguish will take hold of them; They will writhe like a woman in labor, They will look at one another in astonishment, Their faces aflame.
 9 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light.
 11 Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.
 12 I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold And mankind than the gold of Ophir.
 13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the LORD of hosts In the day of His burning anger.
 14 And it will be that like a hunted gazelle, Or like sheep with none to gather them, They will each turn to his own people, And each one flee to his own land.
 15 Anyone who is found will be thrust through, And anyone who is captured will fall by the sword.
 16 Their little ones also will be dashed to pieces Before their eyes; Their houses will be plundered And their wives ravished.
 17 Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them, Who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold.
 18 And their bows will mow down the young men, They will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb, Nor will their eye pity children.

 19 And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans' pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
 20 It will never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation; Nor will the Arab pitch his tent there, Nor will shepherds make their flocks lie down there.
 21 But desert creatures will lie down there, And their houses will be full of owls; Ostriches also will live there, and shaggy goats will frolic there.
 22 Hyenas will howl in their fortified towers And jackals in their luxurious palaces. Her fateful time also will soon come And her days will not be prolonged.  (Isa. 13:1-22 NAU)
 If Wallace wishes to be "biblical", he would have to add "rape" and "child massacre" to the "miracles" that God does.

And because all of God's judgments are good and righteous, Wallace would not see the slightest sign of psychological problems in the fools who praise God for ALL of His works....which would thus mean praising God for his causing of rape and child massacre.

Friday, February 16, 2018

Cold Case Christianity: The Biblical Case for Adam and Eve

This is my reply to an article by J. Warner Wallace entitled 

I’ve been investigating murders for over 20 years, and along the way, I’ve learned to appreciate the importance of language selection. Consider the following three statements:
 “The Nuggets killed the Lakers last night. They beat ‘em by 25 points.”
“I love this comic; he always kills me!”
“I deeply regret killing my wife, and I wish I could turn back time.”
 All three declarations acknowledge the proper definition of the word “kill,” yet only one of these statements is likely to be of interest to a jury in a murder trial.
And given that most Christian scholars deny the existence of literal conscious eternal suffering, Christianity could never be as serious as a murder trial.
Every time we assess someone’s use of language, we must first examine the context in which the words were spoken. As a 35-year-old skeptic, reading the Bible thoroughly for the first time, I found myself examining the words of Scripture in an attempt to understand Moses’ meaning related to the first two characters in the Biblical narrative: Adam and Eve. Were they real human beings? Were they allegorical figures described by Moses in an attempt to illustrate the plight of early man? Were they written figuratively to represent all of humankind? I knew from my professional work as a detective that the surest way to understand a statement was simply to examine its context and to compare it to other proclamations made by the suspect.
Trouble is, bible scholars are in wide disagreement about to what extent the alleged writings of Moses reflect his actual words.  You don't have the first clue whether the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis was authored by the same person responsible for the canonnical version of Leviticus.
As a skeptical seeker, I took the same approach with Adam and Eve. After examining every passage of Scripture, I found the following:
 Adam and Eve Were Regarded As Real People
In the earliest accounts of Adam and Eve, Moses described them singularly (in contrast to his plural descriptions of other animal groups). The waters were teeming with swarms of living creatures and the skies were filled with birds (Genesis 1:20); the earth was bringing forth living creatures after their kind (v.24), filling with beasts and cattle. God created with great plurality in every category of creature except humans. Adam and Eve were described as singular individuals. It’s difficult to consider them allegorically or representatively, given that Moses failed to use language that could assist us to do so.
Ok, so Moses was speaking just as plainly here about humanity's first two people as did the Sumerian god Enki.
Adam and Eve Responded As Real People
Moses also described Adam and Eve’s behavior in a manner consistent with the behavior of real people.
Except for Eve's lack of surprise in conversing with a talking snake.  Genesis 3:2

And some would argue that an Adam searching through a zoo of animals to see if any could be his life-partner, is not the typical behavior of real people.  Genesis 2:20...why does the text specify Adam found among the zoo no suitable helper, if he wasn't looking for a suitable helper at the time?
Moses put specific words on their lips as they interacted in the Garden, and like other real people, Adam and Eve responded to one another (and to God).
The same could be said for any number of ancient stories about man's origin.  But since you don't infer their truth from their literal intent, you shouldn't be inferring the truth of the biblical accounts merely because Moses intended them to be taken literally.
Adam and Eve gave birth to specific individuals, and Moses intentionally noted the age of Adam when some of his children were born (Genesis 5:3-4).
Ancient Jews were crazy in love with genealogies.
Adam’s offspring (Cain, Abel, and Seth, for example) were identified by name and had a personal history of their own, just as we would expect if they, too, were real people.
People described in the Epic of Gilgamesh also had their own personalized stories.
Adam and Eve Were Recorded As Real People
Moses placed Adam in genealogies alongside other specific individuals who we acknowledge as real, historic human beings. Moses repeatedly recorded the historic lineage of important people (like Noah, Shem, Ham, Japheth, and Terah) with the expression, “These are the generations of….” Adam was no exception. Moses used this same expression when recording the generations of Adam in Genesis 5:1. Other authors of Scripture repeated this inclusion in the lineage of real humans. Adam appeared in the genealogy of 1 Chronicles 1:1, in Luke’s genealogy of Jesus (Luke 3:38), and in Jude’s reference to Enoch (Jude 1:14). These genealogies and references recorded the names of specific, real individuals, and Adam was included in their ranks.
Paul took the wives of Abraham as allegory:

22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.   (Gal. 4:22-26 NAU)
Notice, in v. 24, the "this" which he says is "allegorically speaking", is the scriptural statement referenced in the prior verse, which comes on the heels of Paul's specification "it is written" (v. 22), which makes it certain that Paul isn't just applying an allegorical exegeical method to literal people, he is saying allegory is the meaning of the scriptural text, and he could not be clearer than in saying "these two women are two covenants..."
Adam and Eve Were Referenced As Real People
Throughout the Old and New Testament, writers of Scripture referred to Adam as though he was a real person and not an allegory or representative of mankind. Job offered Adam as an example of someone who attempted to hide his sin (Job 31:33). Hosea offered Adam as a specific example of someone who broke his covenant with God (Hosea 6:7). In the New Testament, Paul repeatedly referenced Adam as a real person, calling him the “first man” (1 Corinthians 15:45), and describing both Adam and Eve as specific individuals (1 Timothy 2:13,14).
I don't see the point.  Christians also think Jesus is a real person and currently invisible.  Portraying a person as literal apparently doesn't have much of a restraining effect on absurd embellishment.  Consider St. Nicholas.
Adam and Eve Were Held Responsible As Real People
The historic Christian doctrines of sin and salvation hinge on the real existence of Adam as an individual human being, responsible for the introduction of sin into the world.
Despite the fact that Judaism, Church of Christ and other Christian groups deny original sin despite their agreement with you that Adam was a literal person.
In Romans 5, Paul wrote that sin entered the world “through the one man (Adam)” (verse 12) and that life was (and is) given “through the one man, Jesus Christ” (verse 17). Jesus, as a real man, serves as the remedy for sin; the responsibility for this sin was another real man, Adam. In the context of Paul’s divinely inspired teaching, Adam was every bit as real as Jesus.
I should have guessed:  you are not writing to convince skeptics, but only to help those who already believe, feel better about it.  The easier of the two jobs.  I get it.
Recent genetic research is challenging the notion that all humanity emerged from a single pair of humans, and some Christians are starting to rethink their interpretation of Adam and Eve in response to this challenge. The number of unanswered questions continues to grow. How reliable are the scientific conclusions? How can Adam and Eve be the source of all humanity if genetic research seems to indicate a much larger original group? Is there an interpretation of Scripture that can reconcile this apparent contradiction?
Other questions might be "Is Christianity's in-house debate on the historicity of Adam one of those "word-wrangling" discussions that Paul prohibited J. Warner Wallace from being part of in 2nd Timothy 2:14?"
I’ve learned an important truth over the years as a detective: Every case has unanswered questions, and we successfully prosecute suspects in spite of this reality.
The justice system also produces a fair number of false convictions, indicating that unanswered questions can be serious problems inhibiting the quest for truth.  Sometimes its wrong to press forward.
We first acknowledge what is evidentially clear, and then search for reasonable explanations in the areas that are less certain.
With the caveat that in your criminal investigations, if you seriously set forth some supernatural explanation for a suspect's guilt, you lose your job.  Another reason why your "cold-case Christianity" is nothing but a marketing gimmick.
As Christians work to reconcile the nature of scientific evidence with the claims of the Bible,
...despite the fact that bible inerrancy is hotly contested by most Christian scholars, suggesting one is wrong to even be motivated to reconcile the bible with science...
one thing is evidentially clear: The writers of Scripture describe Adam and Eve as real, historic individuals. We must begin here and then search for reasonable explanations in the areas that are less certain.
For example, the Talmud reference that says before Eve was created, Adam had sex with the animals, when in fact Jewish abhorrence of bestiality would cause us to expect the ancient Jews would never interpret Genesis 2:20 that way, therefore, they are likely interpreting it that way by feeling constrained by the evidence, not because they are trying to be funny or stupid:
Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 63a
R. Eleazar further stated: What is the meaning of the Scriptural text, I will make him a help meet
for him? If he was worthy she is a help to him; if he was not worthy she is against him. Others
say: R. Eleazar pointed out a contradiction: It is written kenegedo but we read kenegedo! — If he was worthy she is meet for him; if he was not worthy she chastises him. 
R. Jose met Elijah and asked him: It is written, I will make him a help;11 how does a woman help a man? The other replied: If a man brings wheat, does he chew the wheat? If flax, does he put on the flax?12 Does she not, then, bring light to his eyes and put him on his feet! 
R. Eleazar further stated: What is meant by the Scriptural text, This is now bone of my bones, andflesh of my flesh?13 This teaches that Adam had intercourse with every beast and animal but found no satisfaction until he cohabited with Eve.

Wednesday, December 27, 2017

My reply to CADRE: the fool who thinks biblical claims qualify as background knowledge for Bayesian prior probability

from

http://christiancadre.blogspot.com/2017/02/on-prior-probability-of-resurrection.html



Blogger barry said...
"First, there are the evidence and arguments from natural theology that suggest the existence of God..yhe evidence for the God of Israel is important information to bring to the question of prior probability."
-----But 'god' as used in the traditional religious conception is an incoherent concept. He thinks without a physical brain, sees without physical eyes, etc. You don't stay afloat in the atheism debate by merely saying immaterial life is "possible". There are no confirmed cases of immaterial life in the first place. Your citation to God as relevant background, is about as convincing as citing to ghosts, haunted houses and ESP for relevant background on the nature of humanity.

"What is the probability that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead?""
------Well given that no person in history has been the subject of more historical dispute than any other (his existence, what he taught, how special he was, etc), I'd say the truth about Jesus is too ambiguous and obscure (beyond irrelevant details like his basic existence, his gender,) to be considered the least bit useful for relevant background.

"Jesus was widely reported by followers and detractors alike to have performed healing miracles and miracles of provision."
----Yet his brothers didn't believe in him (John 7:5) and his family concluded that he had gone crazy (Mark 3:21), both times occuring about a third of the way into his earthly ministry, when checking whether his works were authentically supernatural or something less would have been easy. How does the failure of those most intimate with Jesus to appreciate his "miracles", factor into your background knowledge data set?

"Finally, I would suggest there is precedent for a miracle, even a "raising of the dead" of sorts, in the origin of life."
-------But given that the universe is more than likely infinite, all logically possible combinations of chemicals must have happened in the infinite past, including the combinations that we call "life".

Ask yourself why you think you need to improve upon the way the Holy Spirit has caused unbelievers for centuries to "see the light". If the Holy Spirit didn't need Bayesian logic for centuries, he likely doesn't need it now, and as a Christian, your priority is what god wants you to do...not whether you can find a way to reconcile your new approach with the biblical approach.

If the bible is the biggest gun you can bring to any religious debate, I suggest you start acting like it.
12/27/2017 04:41:00 PM
 Delete


Monday, December 18, 2017

My rebuttal to Kalam, posted to NAMB Apologetics

Here's what I posted over at NAMB's Apologetics Blog:
--------------
Dr. Craig states the Kalam's first premise as follows:
"Everything that begins to exist has a cause." 
There is no evidence that anything has ever "began to exist", except in the sense of rearranging pre-existing atoms.
Rearranging pre-existing atoms is seen every day, cars, babies, books, etc.  These all 'come into existence' only in the sense that they make use of pre-existing matter.   
But that is not the sense Craig and most apologists intend in Kalam's first premise.  Otherwise they'd merely be saying rearrangements of pre-existing atoms requires a cause, which is hardly controversial and proves nothing. 
The sense they intend is "the beginning of the existence of new matter must have a cause".
THAT sense is not confirmed by any scientific evidence.  We have no evidence that matter itself was ever created, or ever once didn't exist; we only have evidence that matter, already existing, rearranges itself into new configurations.  
Therefore, the first premise of Kalam appears certainly false, and as such, the whole of the argument topples, and as such, Kalam does not require a beginning to the universe.  Our intuitions about things needing a beginning never arise from observed instances of creation of new matter, but only arise from observed instances of pre-existing matter being continuously reconfigured.  Hence, our intuitions do NOT tell us that matter *itself* ever had to "come from" anywhere.





Saturday, September 9, 2017

My challenge to Christian apologist Jonathan McLatchie

The following is the challenge I emailed to Cross-Examined author Jonathan McLatchie,  his reply, and my response. McLatchie is describes himself as one of the "world's leading apologists" at his youtube site, and  apparently has a master's degree in evolutionary biology and is active in other apologetics ministries involving Frank Turek and Josh McDowell, and if that is the case, then his stated reason for refusal to debate me is even less sensible, since apparently he isn't a know-nothing hack, but is quite capable of understanding what needs to be done to validly defend something he believes.
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On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Barry Jones <barryjoneswhat@gmail.com> wrote:

Though I am an atheist, I agreed with and replied to your blog post about how modern Christian apologetics can reduce "Christianity" to little more than a game of intellectual jousting.

In my reply, I insist that apologists Steve Hays, Jason Engwer, and especially James Patrick Holding, bear about as much spiritual fruit as a dead alligator.  The passion for holines seen in the NT epistles and in 3 more centuries of patristic writings is screamingly absent from their online writings.

James Patrick Holding libeled me and I sued him, and instead of doing the Christian thing and apologizing, he hired a lawyer at great expense to himself and his followers, to get both cases dismissed on technicalities...then continued libeling me anyway, as if he was just brick stupid.  Holding's claim to fame is his citing the Context Group to justify his belief that the NT authorizes Christians of today to belittle and defame anybody who publicly criticize Christianity, a position he cannot find support for in any published Christian scholar, including the Context Group, who have disowned him in no uncertain terms more than once.

I am also finishing up a book to be marketed to doubting Christians, to motivate them to not be afraid to take that last step and actually stop having faith.  So since your goal is the exact opposite, perhaps you'd be interested in some discussions with me, especially since I use my blog to advertise reasons for doubt around the internet, potentially reaching the same Christians you are trying to protect.

As usual when I contact Christian apologists, I will be posting this email to you at my blog, to make sure that if you choose not to respond, you will likely be asked why by Christians who read my blog, and they can then decide whether your reason for refusal to engage was because you think I am not intellectually qualified, or because you were fearful that you could not defend your faith in light of my attacks.
Here's a short list of matters I'm willing to discuss with apologists:

1 - There are only 3 eyewitness accounts of Jesus' resurrection in the NT, at best, all the rest are hearsay.  And that's generously granting assumptions of apostolic gospel authorship that I am otherwise prepared to attack on the merits.

2 - Apostle Paul's gospel contradicts the one Jesus preached.

3 - The actions of the 11 apostles after allegedly experiencing the risen Christ indicate what they actually experienced, if anything, was something less than the "amazing transformation" lauded so loudly by apologists.

4 - Because Matthew is in all likelihood not responsible for the content in canonical Greek Matthew, he and his gospel are disqualified as witnesses.

5 - Because John was willing to falsely characterize divine words he got by vision, as if they were things the historical Jesus really said and did, John and his gospel are disqualified as witnesses.

6 – John’s intent to write a "spiritual" gospel as opposed to imitating the Synoptics which he knew had already disclosed the “external facts”, argues that “spiritual” here implies something different than mere writing down of eyewitness testimony.  The historical evidence that is accepted by even fundamentalists makes clear that John’s source for gospel material included visions and not just memory.

7 - The NT admission that most of Paul's converts apostatized from him for the Judaizer gospel, warrants skeptics to be a bit more hesitant than Christians before classifying Paul as a truth-robot.  The NT evidence against Paul's integrity is many, varied and strong.

8 - Papias asserted Mark "omitted nothing" of what he heard Peter preach.  Because Bauckham is wrong when saying Papias here was using mere literary convention, Papias meant that phrase literally...in which case Mark's silence on the virgin birth is not due to his "omission" of it, the virgin birth doesn't appear in his gospel because there was never a virgin birth story available for him to omit in the first place...a strong attack on Matthew's and Luke's credibility.

9 - Paul's belief that Mark's abandonment of ministry justifies excluding him from further ministry work (Acts 15) will always remain a justifiable reason (assuming Acts’ historicity here) to say Mark wasn't too impressed with gospel claims, even assuming he later fixed his disagreements with Paul and wrote the gospel now bearing his name.

10 - Mark's strong apathy toward writing down Peter's preaching supports the above premise that he was less than impressed with the gospel, and likely only joined himself to the group for superficial reasons.  Not a good day for fundamentalists who think Mark was inspired by God to write his gospel.

11 - Peter's explicit refusal to endorse Mark's gospel writing, militates, for obvious reasons, against the idea that Peter approved of it.

12 - stories of women becoming pregnant by a god in a way not disturbing her virginity, are securely dated hundreds of years before the 1st century.  The copycat Savior hypothesis is virtually unassailable, once the admittedly false skeptical exaggerations of the evidence are excluded, and rationally warrants skepticism toward Matthew's and Luke's honesty.

13 - The failure of Jesus' own immediate family to believe his ministry-miracles were genuinely supernatural (the logical inference from John 7:5 and Mark 3:21-31) provides reasonable and rational warrant for skeptics to say the miracles Jesus allegedly did, were no more real than those done by Benny Hinn and other wildly popular religiously fanatical con artists.

14 - The evidence for the specific contention that most of the apostles or earliest Christians died as martyrs (i.e., were forced to choose between death or committing blasphemy, and chose death) is furiously scanty and debatable, justifying skepticism toward this popular apologetic argument.

15 - the mass-hallucination hypothesis does not require the exact same mental images to have been shared by the original apostles.  Mass-hallucination need not require such impossibility any more than Pentecostals being slain in the spirit requires them to all move and talk in the exact same way before they can validly claim to have shared the same experience.

16 - There are contradictions in the resurrection accounts that are not capable of reasonable harmonization.

I am also willing to discuss whatever apologetics argument you think is the most clear and compelling.  Intelligent Design?  You'd be surprised at how easy that is to refute and how it justifies Marcion's heresy.  Messianic prophecy?  I'll discuss whichever one you believe is the most compelling.  Atheism?  I argue that "God" as believed in the Judaeo-Christian heritage is an incoherent concept, which provides all the rational warrant necessary to dismiss it just as quickly one dismisses pyramid power or telepathy. Epistemology?  I advocate empiricism, namely, you cannot give a convincing argument that anybody has ever learned a fact completely apart from their 5 physical senses, therefore, believing facts never come to our minds except via one or more of our five physical senses, is about as invalidly presumptuous as believing the cars I see continue to exist after I shut my eyes. 

I will discuss any other topic you wish. 

Sincerely,
Barry Jones



On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 10:20 AM, Jonathan McLatchie <jmclatchie@apologetics-academy.org> wrote:
So let me get this straight: you have a history of suing people, and you are basically saying that if I don't accept, you're going to assume that you won? I'm going to save us both the trouble now, because I am not predicting a fruitful exchange of ideas. Best wishes on your future endeavors.



Jonathan






Barry Jones <barryjoneswhat@gmail.com>           
12:14 PM (8 minutes ago)   to Jonathan

First, I said good things about you and agreed with your basic premise, so I'm a bit less incorrigible/ignorant than you imply.

Second, if you really are the good conservative Christian you paint yourself to be, then you have no rational basis to believe I might take something you tell me and sue you for it.  If you didn't plan to libel or defame me, then you leave yourself no reason to avoid debate with me, especially in light of the fact that in your reply you don't mention any such thing as lack of time or being too busy. If you are fearful that I twist the law to frivolously sue people for libel, feel free to request from me a copy of my two lawsuits against James Patrick Holding, and you'll quickly discover that I don't twist the law or the facts when I sue people for libel.  You might have to face the grim possibility that your Christian brother Mr. Holding is every bit the unrepentant dishonest scumbag my lawsuits and my blog allege that he is, whether this truth upsets you or not.

Third, I did not express or imply that I'd win a debate with you all because you refused to step in the ring.  What I said was

    As usual when I contact Christian apologists, I will be posting this email to you at my blog, to make sure that if you choose not to respond, you will likely be asked why by Christians who read my blog, and they can then decide whether your reason for refusal to engage was because you think I am not intellectually qualified, or because you were fearful that you could not defend your faith in light of my attacks.

That neither expresses nor implies "if you don't respond, I win!".  I leaves it to the reader to decide whether your excuse for refusing to debate is genuine, or pretext.

Fourth, I'm not seeing how my history of suing people is relevant to you and I discussing your favorite apologetics arguments.  You cannot avoid the criticism "the 'sign' in Isaiah 7:14 was not the girl's virginity while pregnant, but the timing between the defeat of the two rival kingdoms Ahaz feared, and the boy's ability to distinguish good and evil" by saying "you've sued people in the past!"   My suing people in the past wouldn't help you escape the sad fact that there are only 3 resurrection testimonies in the NT that come down to us today in first-hand form.  If you think 3 is sufficient to compel belief upon pain of being proved irrational, you can surely attempt to sustain that thesis without needing to bring up the fact that I sued people in the past.

Fifth, You don't say so, but I cannot help believing that some of the reason you are so terse with me is that I really slaughtered the reputation of James Patrick Holding in a rather brutal way, and you are merely miffed at this gaping wound in the body of Christ left by a person you think is a disciple of the devil.  All factual allegations I made against anybody in any of my lawsuits were true, especially the two lawsuits I filed against James Patrick Holding.  Mr. Holding, dishonest fake Christian that he is, chose to pay a lawyer $21,000 to obtain dismissal of my lawsuits against him on technicalities so that he wouldn't have to answer my charges on the merits...instead of settling with me for thousands of dollars less as Jesus required of him in Matthew 5:25, 40.

Mr. Holding's refusal to agree to reasonable settlement was in violation of Jesus' legal advice, supra, and when he finally couldn't stand the pressure anymore, he posted a video giving an interpretation of that passage that he still cannot find any support for from any Christian scholar, liberal or conservative.  Worse, his interpretation contradicts the one espoused by conservative evangelical scholar Craig Blomberg, as I prove in one of my blogs.

Sixth, shame on you for dishonestly pretending my litigation history makes you think I'd be an unworthy or unqualified debate opponent.   I offered you specific debate challenges on specific debate topics that do not require either of us to bring up any living person's litigation history or reputation.  The reader will have to decide what makes more sense:  You really think my lawsuit history somehow proves I'm either dishonest in my bible arguments or too stupid to be deemed a worthy opponent, ...or you are instead fearful that you would lose a debate with me, but saving face is more important than letting the gazing public know the humbling truth.   You are an apologist.  You cannot exactly afford to admit your true fears.  You wish to lead others to the light.  You cannot achieve that goal if you admit there are some unbeliever-arguments that really kick your theological ass to the moon and back.

Well given that my suing people in the past doesn't have jack shit to do with whether my views of the bible are correct, I'm guessing that you are genuinely fearful you could not sustain a reasonable defense of your faith in debate with me, and the reason you lie about why you refuse to engage is because your desire to save face is stronger than your desire to be honest.

One of these days, a doubting Christian will take you up on your offer to help them get over a biblical problem, and will mention that something at my blog encouraged their doubts, then you will have to explain why you think the fact that I sued a lot of people in the past is sufficient reason to turn away from my bible criticism and tell yourself I surely must have gotten something wrong somewhere.  Good luck with that.

I continue to say that your bible-god approves of sex within adult-child marriages.  You have no rational warrant to charge me with foolishness and cataclysmic ignorance until AFTER you have debated me and found out for yourself how much or little I can sustain that thesis as you try to refute it.

When you become prepared to handle academic criticisms of your cherished beliefs in a way that doesn't involve the childish irrelevant subject matter you are currently trying to hide behind ("you've sued a lot of people!", etc), you know how to contact me.

Best wishes,

Barry Jones
http://turchisrong.blogspot.com

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 Update: September 9, 2017:  I just found Mr. McLatchie's Youtube channel, and thus found out he has also formally debated atheists and others, so when this is combined with his academic degrees in evolutionary biology, his "you've sued a lot of people!" excuse for refusing to debate me is even less sensible than I first asserted, but for now, this is what I posted at his channel, and I predict that it will be deleted by him as soon as he notices it:




I responded to another of his youtube videos:




I posted the following to another one of McLatchie's videos, here:









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