Showing posts with label virgin birth. Show all posts
Showing posts with label virgin birth. Show all posts

Sunday, December 19, 2021

My attack on the Virgin Birth in reply to Nick Peters

Nick Peters debated John Richards about the Virgin Birth.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1oPJWCsCWQ

In the comments section, I posted 11 justifications for skepticism toward the Virgin Birth:

Let's see, the intent of the apologist is never to merely show that belief in the VB can be reasonable. There is ALWAYS a chip on their shoulder, they are ALWAYS trying to prove that skepticism toward the VB could not be reasonable. I advance 11 arguments to show that skepticism toward the VB is reasonable: 1 - Mark's failure to mention the virgin birth is significant. you will say he didn't think it necessary to mention because it was already known, but you don't know how well known the virgin birth doctrine was before the end of the first century. And regardless, Mark mentions lots of stuff that appears in Matthew and Luke, showing Mark's intent to repeat, thus refuting those who pretend Mark didn't wish to repeat things already known. And patristic sources are pretty clear that Mark "omitted nothing" from his account. Therefore what he left out, was not a case of 'omission', but matter that he either didn't know about, or which he regarded as false. Bible inerrancy is a false doctrine, so I have no sympathy for the fools who demand that any theory to explain the virgin birth missing from Mark reconciles Mark with other biblical authors. 2 - Matthew and Luke are the only NT authors to mention the virgin birth, when in fact one hermeneutic used by conservatives is to emphasize a doctrine only in proportion to how often it is taught in the bible. That's why most conservatives can't stop talking about Paul, and why ost conservatives don't have much to say about the VB until somebody presses a skeptical objection to it. 3 - today's fundies would never believe a similar story about some 14 year old girl today. But beacuse the VB is mired in ancient history, fundies seem to think this gives it an aura of verisimilitude, even though they refuse to draw such a conclusion about most other ancient theological statements outside the bible. 4 - Jesus never mentioned his conception or birth, indicating he didn't think such things doctrinally important. In fact, when presented with the perfect opportunity to do so, he rebuked the person who praised his mother: 27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." 28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it." (Lk. 11:27-28 NAU) 5 - Mark 3:21 says Jesus' family thought him insane and sought to arrest him and put a stop to his public ministry. The mother of Jesus in Mark 3:21 does not likely think her son was YHWH manifest in human flesh. If that means Mark is contradicting Matthew and Luke, all the more reason to say the VB is fiction. 6 - John 7:5 says Jesus brothers mocked him and did not believe in him. In the chronology of the ministry, John 7 would be after Jesus completed the first third of his earthly ministry. That is, even after about 1 or 2 years of Jesus running around doing miracles, not only do his brothers persist in unbelief toward him (v. 5), they MOCK the whole idea that he is capable of doing miracles (vv. 1-4). It is very reasonable to infer from John 7:5 that Jesus' brothers did not believe he was anything more special than a con artist. 7 - Supposing Jesus to be god for the sake of argument, we have to wonder to what extent this was or wasn't manifest during his infancy and childhood, in order to account for why his family view him as a loon. Did the child Jesus ever make mistakes? If not, wouldn't that have tipped off the family that he was very special and work against their forming the opinion that he was crazy? Did the child Jesus ever sin? If not, wouldn't that have tipped off the family that he was very special, and work against their forming the opinion that he was crazy? If you and your brother are in your 30s, and your brother never sinned once in his life, wouldn't we be reasonable to assume you'd probably have a very high view of him? And if you told us your brother is crazy and deserves to be arrested and his public ministry halted, meaning YOU don't believe in his claims, wouldn't we be reasonable to assume that you never observed anything about your brother that you thought made him any better than anybody else? If these skeptical contentions are reasonable, then we can be reasonable to use Mark 3:21 and John 7:5 to justify concluding that Jesus' family never had any reason to think Jesus was anything supernatural. Apologist trifles otherwise could never have the power to render such skepticism unreasonable. 8 - Jesus defines essential doctrine as his own teachings to the disciples (Matthew 28:20), so since Jesus never taught anything about his conception or birth, not only are those subjects doctrinally irrelevant, Matthew must have thought they were irrelevant. Thus his inclusion of such stories likely only means he agreed with the intertestamental authors, and thought it morally permissible to mix true history with fiction for the sake of edification. 9 - The biggest hurdle, and the one apologists will always stumble at, is how they figure the VB "applies to" believers today. There is no reasonable way to demonstrate that the NT "applies to" today. 10 - Stories of gods impregnating virgins existed before the 1st century, so that it become irresistable to conclude that Matthew and Luke merely took a popular religious motif and gave it a new spin. See Pindar's Pythian Ode # 12, securely dated more than 200 years before Jesus, where Danae is still called "virgin" during and after giving birth to Perseus, the son of Zeus. “And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Perseus.: (Justin, Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch. 22, Schaff, P. (2000). 11 - Perhaps most embarrassing to today's apologists, the early church fathers had to resort to a contrived theory of the devil imitating Christ's virtues before Christ existed, in order to "explain" why certain aspects of Christianity and Jesus were found in pre-Christian paganism. If the answer was as simple as "the pagan version didn't exist until after Jesus was born", then the church fathers would not have employed this silly apologetic to 'explain' the parallels. See Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, ch. LXIX. Justin is most explicit in this, in his First Apology:
Chapter LIV.—Origin of Heathen Mythology. But those who hand down the myths which the poets have made, adduce no proof to the youths who learn them; and we proceed to demonstrate that they have been uttered by the influence of the wicked demons, to deceive and lead astray the human race. For having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come, and that the ungodly among men were to be punished by fire, they put forward many to be called sons of Jupiter, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things which were said with regard to Christ were mere marvellous tales, like the things which were said by the poets. And these things were said both among the Greeks and among all nations where they [the demons] heard the prophets foretelling that Christ would specially be believed in; but that in hearing what was said by the prophets they did not accurately understand it, but imitated what was said of our Christ, like men who are in error, we will make plain. The prophet Moses, then, was, as we have already said, older than all writers; and by him, as we have also said before, it was thus predicted: “There shall not fail a prince from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until He come for whom it is reserved; and He shall be the desire of the Gentiles, binding His foal to the vine, washing His robe in the blood of the grape.”115 The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine, and they number wine116 [or, the ass] among his mysteries; and they taught that, having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven. And because in the prophecy of Moses it had not been expressly intimated whether He who was to come was the Son of God, and whether He would, riding on the foal, remain on earth or ascend into heaven, and because the name of “foal” could mean either the foal of an ass or the foal of a horse, they, not knowing whether He who was foretold would bring the foal of an ass or of a horse as the sign of His coming, nor whether He was the Son of God, as we said above, or of man, gave out that Bellerophon, a man born of man, himself ascended to heaven on his horse Pegasus. And when they heard it said by the other prophet Isaiah, that He should be born of a virgin, and by His own means ascend into heaven, they pretended that Perseus was spoken of. And when they knew what was said, as has been cited above, in the prophecies written aforetime, “Strong as a giant to run his course,”117 they said that Hercules was strong, and had journeyed over the whole earth. And when, again, they learned that it had been foretold that He should heal every sickness, and raise the dead, they produced Aesculapius.
------------- For all these reasons, every apologist who classifies VB skepticism as unreasonable, is high on crack.







Monday, June 8, 2020

Cold Case Christianity: Did Jesus think he was God?

This is my reply to an article by J. Warner Wallace entitled:

In this video, J. Warner discusses the language Jesus used when describing Himself. Did His words demonstrate what He believed about Himself?
But as I've already demonstrated ad nauseum, many conservative Christian scholars think the Christ-sayings in John's gospel reflect more John's theological views and less what Jesus "actually" said.  So trying to establish high Christology by using John's gospel is foolish.

Mike Licona might argue that you can get Jesus beng God out of Mark, the earliest gospel, but I don't see the point.  Yes, people before the 1st century believed the gods could come down to the them in the likeness of man (Acts 14:11), so the skeptic who tries to argue that the NT's Christology is only high beacuse it is late, is not doing her homework.

At the same time, low Christology can be gleaned from Paul (Jesus was declared the son of God with power by resurrectoin from the dead, Romans 1:5).  Fundies will carp that this doesn't imply Paul thought Jesus lacked divine attributes until the resurrection, but Paul doesn't show much interest in Jesus' earthly life, so fundies have no basis to think Paul thought Jesus was always Lord from birth.  Fundies will cite the kenosis in Phil. 2:5-8, but the "mind" that is spoken of is the one which was in "Christ Jesus", the name given to him at his birth, but not before.  Paul is likely referring to the attitude Jesus had as a man on earth, not as the prexistent logos.

Mark 6:5 said Jesus "could" not do a miracle, but the parallel in Matthew 13:58 changes this to "did" not do a miracle, that is, Matthew the later author is changing Mark's earlier negation of Jesus' abilities, with a phrase that no longer implicates Jesus' abilities.  That is, the earlier version of Christianity had a lower Christology.  We can only wonder how many other changes scribes made to the text of Mark during the first 250 years for which we have no manuscripts, to "assimilate" it back to Matthew.  I think this is the part where desperate inerrantists suddenly discover that the Synoptic Problem doesn't exist, and the similarities of Matthew and Mark imply nothing more than their drawing upon a common core of oral tradition. 

Except that wiggling out of the problem like that doesn't render the skeptical hypothesis unreasonable, it just show you have the same face-saving capabilities that the Mormons have.

Furthermore, the ideas in the Sermon on the Mount are often unrelated despite following each other in chronological fashion.  Most scholars explain this by saying the author has simply made a pastiche of various sayings Jesus spoke in various different circumstances, and grouped such aphorisms into one bunch.

That is, most scholars think the gospel authors replaced the original context of the Christ-sayings with the author's own created literary context, so that we can never really be confident that the "context" we read today is accurately reflecting the oral "context" Jesus originally spoke those words in. 

That creates a further problem:  the gospel authors did not care about "original" context as much as today's inerrantists do, and this justifies the atheist to infer the sources are not sufficiently reliable to attempt getting confident conclusions from.  There was a textually dark period between Jesus' life and the earliest manuscripts, and nobody has any idea how many times scribes in that critical period did what Metzger and Aland contantly accuse them of ('assimilating' one gospel statement with another) so that for all we know, the degree to which the gospels currently agree on facts has more to do with post-authorship emendation, and less to do with what the original authors actually said. 

Sunday, December 22, 2019

Demolishing Triablogue: The Weakness Of The Evidence For Matthew's Authorship

This is my reply to an article by Jason Engwer at Triablogue entitled

If the gospel attributed to Matthew was written by him, then that's a good line of evidence for the historicity of what he reports about Jesus' childhood.
Which is like saying an eyewitness report is good evidence for the historicity of some alleged event.     That's not "good", that's merely "slightly better than hearsay".

But since objections to the arguments for Jesus' resurrection are weighty and powerful, it hardly matters whether Jesus was the son of God.  Failure is failure, no matter how bright your clothes are.  And failure justifies others to draw certain conclusions.
Matthew's gospel and other early sources (e.g., Acts 1:13-14) put the apostle in contact with people who knew a lot about Jesus' background, such as Jesus himself, his mother, his brothers, and the people of Nazareth.
And Jesus' own immediate family members did not find his miracles the least bit compelling. Mark 3:21, 6:4 and John 7:5.  I've seen how you Triablogue types jump around like fleas on a dog trying to "account for" these verses while trifling that Jesus' miracles were still real.  Keep dreaming.

You think the author of Mark got his material from Peter, who was associated with Mary and other apostles, yet Mark attributes no miracles to Jesus' birth.  Whatever people were wondering about in Mark 6:3, that verse doesn't equal "Jesus was magically conceived."  But Jason Engwer specializes in squeezing blood out of turnips.  So Mark's disinterest in a birth of Jesus that you think was legitimately miraculous and which also testified in favor of Mark's own theme of Jesus as Son of God, is YOUR problem.

What you aren't going to do is prove the unreasonableness of the skeptic who cites Mark's silence on the virgin birth as a justification to accuse Matthew and Luke of lying.
But even conservative scholars don't say much about the evidence for Matthean authorship of the gospel,
Probably because they recognize a trap when they see it.  After all, being conservatives, they would more than likely make a big deal out of Matthew's authorship if they thought doing so could come across as serious argument.
and the few arguments they bring forward don't get developed much.
Probably because they recognize that the evidence in their favor is not very strong and easily falsifiable.  Papias this, logia that, and let's move on.
Here's a collection of articles on the evidence for Matthew's authorship.
I'll start a new blog piece to answer those.








Thursday, December 5, 2019

My virgin-birth rebuttal at Patheos

A Catholic blogger wrote a piece on the questionable historicity of the nativity stories.  See here.

I posted the following reply:

barry • a few seconds from nowHold on, this is waiting to be approved by messyinspirations.First, Since the apostles would have been babies at best when the events of Jesus' virgin birth and childhood took place, and because nobody ever dared allege that Mary or Joseph wrote any of the 4 canonical gospels, an assumption of apostolic authorship of the gospels necessarily reduces the nativity stories to hearsay. It doesn't matter if we grant the assumption that Matthew and Luke conducted interviews with Mary and Joseph. The person giving us the facts is not somebody with personal first-hand knowledge, therefore, the nativity stories cannot be anything other than "hearsay".
 Second, skeptics cannot be considered unreasonable for adopting a position also adopted by most Christian scholars; that Mark is the earliest gospel. If the other three gospels came later, then it is reasonable to infer that the reason only two of the later gospels mention the virgin birth is because they are embellishing the earlier story. We naturally expect that between the earliest and later forms of the same story, the latter is more likely the one to contain the embellishments. That simple common sense is not going to disappear merely because the necessary ambiguity and non-absolute nature of the historical evidence enables a fundamentalist apologist to conjure up trifling excuses all day long about why Mark and everybody believed in the virgin birth and simply "didn't wish to repeat it".
 Third, nobody seriously claims that Jesus was referring to actual historical events when giving his parables. So it is also reasonable to deduce that the gospel authors found Jesus' use of fiction-to-support-theology useful and good when applied elsewhere, so that getting people to believe in high Christology was more important than whether the stories intended to facilitate such belief were actually true. It is not true that a stranger will necessarily kidnap your kids...but then again, you create far more good and family safety/cohesion if you just teach your small child 'stranger-danger'. The higher good of family safety trumps the idiot who trifles that "stranger-danger" isn't necessarily true. For that reason, it is reasonable to assume that the gospel authors would have found getting a person to believe the way the authors did, far more important than whether the "facts" that such faith was predicted upon were actually true. That's rather stupid under modern western notions of truth, but we are talking 1st century Palestine, where people 14 years after the fact will swear they saw heaven despite continuing to be unable to tell whether their flying into the sky was physical or spiritual (2nd Cor. 12:1-4). Fundamentalists probably think the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy was written by Moses in 1400 b.c.
 Fourth, fundamentalists have a nasty habit of automatically concluding that if they can think of any non-contradictory "how-it-could-have-been" bare possibility scenario in favor the historicity of the nativity stories, then presto, that bare possibility necessarily and conclusively trumps any possibility set forth by a skeptic. That is inaccurate and irrational: In 20 years of attacking the gospels, I've seen plenty of fundamentalist defenses of the nativity stories. I think TWO of them attempted to show that historicity was more likely than embellishment. once again, nobody wins a historiography debate by merely showing the way they believe does not involve logical contradiction or is founded upon mere possibilities. The person who wins the historical debate is the person who shows that their theory is more likely to be true than the theory they disagree with. Sure, its possible Mark knew of and approved of the virgin birth stories but chose for his own reasons to avoid mentioning them, but that's only a possibility. You will have to show that this is more likely than the skeptical theory that says Mark, with his goal to prove Jesus was the divine son of God, would never "choose to excude" nativity stories that support his intended theme often more powerfully than the pericopes he DID choose to record.
 Fifth, I have formed particularized rebuttals to the particular arguments of Licona, Habermas and W.C.Craig in favor of the resurrection, and if it be reasonable to conclude Jesus did not rise from the dead, then under apostle Paul's logic, we are also reasonable to conclude Christians are false witnesses who are still in their sins (1st Cor. 15:15-17), which, makes it reasonable to deduce that Christians are then under YHWH's death penalty even if we granted that they did genuinely supernatural miracles (Deuteronomy 13:1-5). Since YHWH doesn't think the doing of a miracle automatically infuses the theology taught therein with divine approval, then it doesn't matter if we grant the miracle of Jesus' virgin birth for the sake of argument, we'd still have to ask whether Jesus taught in harmony with the Law. 2,000 years of Jewish opposition to Christianity might have a tendency to render skeptics "reasonable" even if not "infallible" in attacking Christianity.
 Sixth, fundamentalists don't merely claim skeptics are "wrong", they also say we are "fools" or "unreasonable" to deny the historicity of the virgin birth narratives. That being the case, if we wish to disprove their contention, we don't have to prove that the skeptical position is "correct", we only have to prove that the skeptical position is "reasonable". If the fundies can become 'reasonable' by merely positing possibilities, they must extend that luxury to skeptics and concede that skeptical possibilities render the skeptic reasonable.
 Seventh, the biggest problem here is the stupid fundamentalist who is always casting bible inerrancy in terms of accuracy. That is, since Jesus was either virgin born or he wasn't, we should expect the historical evidence to show that he was, or show that he wasn't. This is stupid: Jesus was born 2,000 years ago, and the records of such birth are similarly 1,950 years old. Any historian will tell you that you don't answer questions of ancient history in terms of accuracy, you only answer them in terms of probability. How LIKELY is it that the nativity stories are true? How LIKELY is it that the nativity stories are embellishment?
 Eighth, if any fundamentalist thinks Matthew was written to both Christian and non-Christian Jews, that gives you a pretty good idea of how anti-intellectual Matthew was: he expected non-Christian Jews to be persuaded Jesus was virgin born...because of a story...a story that, given Matthew's likely 60 a.d. date of publication, is thus a story that comes to those non-Christian Jews 30 years after the fact. Think legends take at least a full generation to materialize? Think again, read Acts 21:18-24. And most Christian scholars including Licona and Craig Evans admit that Matthew and John engaged in "artistry" and either invented history or placed historical events in a time that they didn't actually occur, so that there is plenty of scholarly justification to say that the gospel authors' concerns for accuracy were not quite as fanatical as those of modern fundamentalists.

Friday, May 4, 2018

Answering Triablogue on Isaiah 7:14

This is my reply to an article by Patrick Chan posted at Triablogue, entitled



 

Wegner states, "There is little doubt that Isa. 7:14 and its reuse in Matt. 1:23 is one of the most difficult problems for modern scholars."67 This stems from a growing amount of evangelicals who question whether Isaiah 7:14 prophesies about a virgin birth.
Thanks for admitting that Christian scholars themselves are growing and more disenchanted with the "literal prediction" manner that they have been characterizing Isaiah 7:14 for centuries.  That would hardly be the case if squeezing Jesus out of that passage were as justifiable as you argue herein.

If spiritually alive people are growing tired of associating Jesus with that verse, you cannot rationally expect spiritually dead people to associate Jesus with it, or to give two shits about learning enough about hermenuetics so as to reply to Christian apologists who treat Isaiah 7:14  the way obstinate jailhouse lawyers for the ACLU treat the U.S. Constitution.

I have good reason to accept the views of some Christian scholars that the book of Isaiah went through an editing process lasting longer than 100 years after the prophet Isaiah died, before the text reached the canonical shape.  I therefore have every good reason to believe that the reason Isaiah seems to speak of a distant future of Israel is because editors took his words and "shaped" them toward that end, and that whether and to what extent the real Isaiah every orally spoke the things credited to him in that book, is forever beyond confirmation.  Your apologetic trifling will convince nobody except other fundamentalists who blindly presume the book of Isaiah is inerrant.  However, you still fail to show that Isaiah in ch. 7 was intended for his prophecy about the boy to relate to events 700 years into the future from himself.  The way you try to get around the obvious historical fulfillment of the prophecy, means you have less in common with honesty and more in common with jailhouse lawyers who get paid to pretend that words are really that elastic.
To be clear, these scholars acknowledges that Jesus was certainly born of a virgin as Matthew states (1:23). However, did Isaiah intend for that idea originally?
No, that's why the timing of the boy's birth, not the mother's pregnancy, is considered the "sign" in Isaiah 7:15.
Is there any movement from Old Testament to New Testament in this case?

Arguments against a messianic interpretation of the text appeal to three major pieces of evidence. First, the historical setting of Isaiah 7 seems to demand Isaiah's sign relate to the current circumstances. Isaiah 7 opens discussing how Ephraim and Aram are placing political and military pressure upon the southern kingdom (vv. 1-2).68 The discussion of the sign responds to that situation (vv. 3-14). This suggests it deals with something in the present and not future.
Thus putting the burden of proof on those who would insist on 'double-fulfillment' or other fundie tactic designed to avoid dealing seriously with Isaiah's immediate context.
Second, the wording of the sign implies this. Isaiah relates Immanuel's birth with the collapse of the kings of Ephraim and Aram (v. 15). That seems to say the sign relates to the current crisis.69
"Seems"? 
Third, later development of the sign in Isaiah seems to support this interpretation. In the very next chapter, Isaiah describes the birth of Maher-shalal-hash-baz in terms quite similar to [the] birth Immanuel (Isa. 8:4; cf. Isa. 7:16). Maher-shalal-hash-baz explicitly deals with the current situation of Ephraim and Aram (Isa. 8:4-8). That appears to confirm Isaiah intended the sign be fulfilled int he current time. Immanuel is a sign of the enemy's destruction and thereby Judah's deliverance.70

These arguments are admittedly compelling and make it seem that this is simply all the text discusses. However, several factors show there may be more involved.
 But if the average skeptic has a life outside of just sitting around all day googling for bible scholars who comment on this bullshit, they have perfect rational warrant to view Isaiah 7 and 8 as fatally ambiguous due to how much bible scholars disagree with each other about every detail therein.  . Joseph Jensen Joseph Jensen Associate Professor, Catholic University of America, Washington, DC, sums it up nicely in the Anchor Bible Dictionary:
As already indicated, many aspects of these verses are disputed. For example,
Immanuel is said to be a royal child (H. Gressmann, E. Hammershaimb, A. S. Herbert, E. J. Kissane, J. Lindblom, J. L. McKenzie, S. Mowinckel, H.-P. Müller, H. Ringgren, J. J. Scullion, B. Vawter, W. Vischer, H. Wildberger, G. E. Wright),

specifically Hezekiah (Hammershaimb, Kissane, Lindblom, O. Procksch, Wildberger),

or Isaiah’s son (R. E. Clements, N. Gottwald, T. Lescow, J. J. Stamm, H. M. Wolf),

or any child conceived at this time (B. Duhm, G. Fohrer, G. B. Gray, O. Kaiser, L. Koehler, W. McKane, K. Marti, J. Mauchline), with “the young woman” being explained accordingly;

he is the new Israel (L. G. Rignell); and

some authors emphasize the difficulty of relating
Immanuel to Isaiah’s historical context in order to favor a more strictly messianic interpretation (T. E. Bird, J. Coppens, F. Delitzsch, J. Fischer, Gressmann, H. Junker, M. McNamara, F. L. Moriarity).

Immanuel
is said to be a favorable sign of salvation (S. Blank, Hammershaimb, Marti, Rignell, Scullion);

he is purely a sign of disaster (K. Budde, H. W. Hertzberg, R. Kilian, Lescow);

he is a double-edged sign (Fischer, Gressmann, Junker, Kaiser, Vischer, H. W. Wolff).
Immanuel’s food (“curds and honey”) is ideal and luxurious food of abundance (Gray, Hammershaimb, Lindblom, Rignell, Scullion, J. Skinner, Wildberger, Wolff);

his food is the nomad fare available in a land that has been devastated (Budde, Cheyne, Delitzsch, Duhm, Fischer, Fohrer, Herbert, Hertzberg, Kaiser, Kilian, McNamara, Marti, Mauchline, Stamm).
Immanuel’s coming to knowledge in v 15 is a temporal expression (“when he learns to reject . . . ,” “by the time he learns . . .”—G. W. Buchanan, T. F. Cheyne, Duhm, Fohrer, Herbert, Hertzberg, Kaiser, Lindblom, McNamara, Marti, Mauchline [following ], Rignell, Skinner, Stamm);

it expresses finality (“so that he may learn to reject . . .”—Budde, F. Dreyfus, P. G. Duncker, Junker, McKane, Mauchline [following
MT], Müller, Scullion, Wildberger, Wolff).

The age at which a child learns to reject evil and choose good means the age at which he can distinguish pleasant from unpleasant (usually set at 2 or 3 years—Clements, Duhm, Fohrer, Herbert, Kilian, Lescow, Lindblom, McKane, Marti, Mauchline, Skinner, Stamm);

it means the age of moral discernment (often set at around 20 years—Budde, Buchanan, Cheyne, Delitzsch, Fischer [at age 3!], Herzberg, Kaiser, McNamara, Rignell, Scullion, Wolff);

it means the age of sexual awareness or maturity (around age 13—R. Gordis, L. F. Hartman, B. Reike).

Although most commentators agree that
v 17 foretells devastation, there are some who take it as a prediction of future blessedness (Lindblom, Hammershaimb, McKane, Scullion).

Some authors question the authenticity of certain words, phrases, or even verses of the passage; in fact, some of the positions listed above require the rejection of parts of the text.
Freedman, D. N. (1996, c1992). The Anchor Bible Dictionary. New York: Doubleday.


Like other prophets, Isaiah's mentality in this text does not merely focus on the present but the future:

    The context of Isaiah 7 shows Isaiah's redemptive historical awareness. Isaiah 7 is not the first chapter of the book. The previous chapters have set up important concepts and issues Isaiah 7 addresses. This revolves around how God will send Israel into exile because of their sin (5:26-30) but will reverse this in the end with a glorious kingdom (2:1-4; 4:2-6). Isaiah's call reiterates this paradigm. His job is to proclaim Israel's condemnation (Isa. 6:8-12) so that in the end, they will be made holy (Isa. 6:13).71 Isaiah's mission is one that connects present with the eschatological. Isaiah 7 is not in a vacuum. Its context suggests the present situation discussed relates to something greater.
The larger context of Isaiah does not bear that strongly on the immediate context of Isaiah 7:14.   Pretending that the apparent purpose of the entire "book" must be read into one of its specific statements is dangerous territory.  The larger purpose of Matthew is to evangelize the Gentiles (28:19-20), but that hardly requires us to read Gentile-implications into everything Matthew recorded Jesus saying.   The apparent purpose of Jeremiah is to condemn his own people for their idolatry, that hardly means we must read a condemnation of the Jews into every last thing he said.

I'm sorry, but you are not opening the door to the possibility that Isaiah 7:14 might mean something greater than its immediate context suggests, by pretending that we have to read some of Isaiah's overall purpose into whatever specific story he relates, such as the one in 7:14.

Your references to earlier chapters in Isaiah do not even bear out what you are trying to do, for in those cases the apparent intent that the historical reality be related to the eschaton is at least arguable, but nothing in the immediate context of Isaiah 7:14 expresses or implies the connection of his Ahaz-prophecy, to anything in the future. 

Worst of all, you pretend as if there's been no editing of Isaiah's words at 7:14 since the day they were first written down, a source critical judgment not shared by any other source critic.  You also don't even know how long of a period it was between what Isaiah allegedly spoke orally, and when these were transferred to written stories, yet you pretend as if there's just no doubting that the written words correspond perfectly to the oral original.  Sorry but you are just a bit more happy about the honesty and reliability of OT authors, than most biblical scholars are, for example, Christian scholar J.D. Watts:
The commentary will be looking at the Vision of Isaiah as a work of literature presented to a literate people. Although it certainly is the end product of a tradition, we will contend that the process was not automatic. Tradition provided the composers of the Vision with material for their book. But they, not tradition, determined the use to which the material was put and the interpretation it received. The commentary will show that this interpretation m many instances runs counter to the conventional thought of their day and of other biblical literature dealing with those events. It may well be that the Isaiah tradition itself ran counter to the conventional concepts and was thus congenial to the writers. But they, not it, produced the final result.
Watts, J. D. W. (2002). Vol. 24: Word Biblical Commentary : Isaiah 1-33. Word Biblical Commentary (Page xlii). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.

Chan continues:
    The immediate context exhibits this very perspective. Isaiah meets Ahaz with his son, Shear-Jashub, whose name means "the remnant will return" (7:3).
The names of the people in the story do not express or imply that what happened to them is some type of prediction of the future, unless you contend that the writer is employing fiction.
72 The language is used earlier in Isaiah (cf. 1:26, 27; 4:3) showing the situation in Isaiah 7 is not just about the present but God's greater agenda of exile and restoration.
Matthew's quotes of Jesus also weren't about merely the present, but the gospel to be given to future Gentile followers.  That hardly means that we read a Gentile-presupposition into everything Matthew says.
73 Likewise, Isaiah's use of the "house of David" evidences Isaiah believed the current situation was a threat not only to Ahaz but the entire Davidic dynasty (7:2).
No, it only shows he was addressing the present generation listening to his voice.  The burden is on you to show that "house of David" was Isaiah's way of addressing people who were not yet born.
74 Interestingly enough, the threat against the Davidic dynasty is the immediate context and concern of the sign (7:13). Again, the immediate context of Isaiah 7 does not merely describe a historical situation but one situated in a larger plan. Isaiah is not just speaking to the present situation
Once again, you have failed to make your case that because Isaiah elsewhere deals with the eschaton, surely he must be doing so in 7:14.  You also need to prioritize how Ahaz likely understood the prophecy, over what you think is going on with Isaiah's literary concerns.  Even if Isaiah took his conversation with Ahaz and transferred it to story-form and added eschatological details, so what?  That would just mean Isaiah is expanding what happened and pretending it has more significance than it originally did.
    The grammar of the sign indicates this. As discussed, some have interpreted Isaiah 7:14-15 to say the child is a sign that the northern kingdom and Aram will be defeated. The language makes mention of the present situation for sure. However, that is not precisely what Isaiah says. Notice, the wording states the son will eat curds and honey (v. 15) because (×›ִּ×™) before the child is old enough to choose between good and evil, the kings' lands will be desolate (v. 16). Technically, the resolution of the conflict with Ephraim and Aram is not the content or purpose of the sign but rather the reason the sign occurs the way it does.
Sorry, Mr. Jailhouse lawyer, but I see no difference between "purpose" and "reason".  If you think I'm wrong, check a thesaurus, see what synonyms are available for "purpose".  No better term was ever invented to characterize sophists like Christian apologists, than "doublespeak".
75 It answers the question "why does Immanuel eat curds and honey, the food of poverty?" (cf. 7:22), as opposed to "what is the significance of Isaiah's sign?"

Because the sign would be fulfilled at a time when poverty was plaguing Ahaz' kingdom, another rope anchoring Isaiah's words to the 7th century b.c. 
Hence, to say Immanuel is a sign for Israel's present deliverance is not grammatically correct. Rather, the present circumstances will cause the tragic circumstances surrounding Immanuel's birth and childhood. Again, the present connect with the future.76
 That can be fixed by noting that Isaiah's child in question probably wouldn't die immediately after Ahaz's enemies fled.  He would likely grow up past the days of Ahaz.  That's as far into the future as the text requires.  Pretending that Isaiah was intending to address people who wouldn't be born until 700 years later is total bullshit.
    Understanding this helps make sense of Maher-shalal-hash-baz in Isaiah 8. As discussed, some scholars parallel Maher-shalal-hash-baz with Immanuel. Indeed, in Isaiah 8:4, Maher-shalal-hash-baz signifies the upcoming desolation of Ephraim and Aram as predicted in Isaiah 7:16. That is the child's prophetic purpose. However, we just observed such desolation is not the purpose of the sign of Immanuel. In Isaiah 7:16, the desolation of those kingdoms explains why Immanuel will be born in poverty and not what Immanuel is all about.
Isaiah ties "immanuel's" significance to a feared invasion from the Assyrians:
 7 "Now therefore, behold, the Lord is about to bring on them the strong and abundant waters of the Euphrates, Even the king of Assyria and all his glory; And it will rise up over all its channels and go over all its banks.
 8 "Then it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass through, It will reach even to the neck; And the spread of its wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel. (Isa. 8:7-8 NAU)
Isaiah is obviously saying that an attack from the present King of Assyria would occur soon (i.e., "about to", v. 7).  By contrast, there is no Assyrian anything going on 700 years later when Jesus was born as Assyria fell not later than 500 b.c.  Isaiah's speaking to Immanuel was not some bizarre prophetic utterance, he was more than likely speaking to an actual boy, if the text can be trusted to convey what Isaiah really said.
Accordingly, Maher-shalal-hash-baz and Immanuel do not share the same purpose.
Then compare what Isaiah 7 says about Immanual, with what Isaiah 8 says about Maher-shalal-hash-baz:
 14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.
 15 "He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.
 16 "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.
 17 "The LORD will bring on you, on your people, and on your father's house such days as have never come since the day that Ephraim separated from Judah, the king of Assyria."
 18 In that day the LORD will whistle for the fly that is in the remotest part of the rivers of Egypt and for the bee that is in the land of Assyria. (Isa. 7:14-18 NAU)

 5 Again the LORD spoke to me further, saying,
 6 "Inasmuch as these people have rejected the gently flowing waters of Shiloah And rejoice in Rezin and the son of Remaliah;
 7 "Now therefore, behold, the Lord is about to bring on them the strong and abundant waters of the Euphrates, Even the king of Assyria and all his glory; And it will rise up over all its channels and go over all its banks.
 8 "Then it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass through, It will reach even to the neck; And the spread of its wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel.
 9 "Be broken, O peoples, and be shattered; And give ear, all remote places of the earth. Gird yourselves, yet be shattered; Gird yourselves, yet be shattered.
 10 "Devise a plan, but it will be thwarted; State a proposal, but it will not stand, For God is with us."   (Isa. 8:5-10 NAU)
Isaiah 7 associates Immanual's life with Assyria's attack on Isaiah's present-generation jews (v. 18), an attack that God "whistle's' for (v. 18), and then in 8:10, God is bringing the king of Assyrian upon the Jewish people.

Indeed, the circumstances in the life of Maher-shalal-hash-baz are said to precede an imminent invasion by the king of Assyria, just like the circumstances in the life of "Immanual" were said to:

 3 So I approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Then the LORD said to me, "Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz;
 4 for before the boy knows how to cry out 'My father ' or 'My mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria." (Isa. 8:3-4 NAU)
 Chan continues:
They relate, but are not the same sign. Maher-shalal-hash-baz is the sign that the harsh circumstances surrounding the Messiah's birth will take place.
No, there is no "Messiah" in Isaiah 7 or 8, unless you mean a temporary messiah living before 600 b.c.
Maher-shalal-hash-baz is near the prophecy that confirms one in the more distant future (Immanuel's birth in exile). Kidner's observation (reiterated by Motyer) sums this up nicely:

        The sign of Immanuel . . . although it concerned ultimate events, did imply a pledge for the immediate future in that however soon Immanuel were born, the present threat would have passed before he would even be aware of it. But the time of his birth was undisclosed; hence the new sign is given to deal only with the contemporary scence.77
 The time of the birth of the boy was given in Isaiah 8:
 3 So I approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Then the LORD said to me, "Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz;
 4 for before the boy knows how to cry out 'My father ' or 'My mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria." (Isa. 8:3-4 NAU)

 18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD has given me are for signs and wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, who dwells on Mount Zion. (Isa. 8:18 NAU)
Your efforts to squeeze Jesus into a context he clearly doesn't belong, are laughable.
    The rest of Isaiah 8 further supports that Immanuel is not Maher-shalal-hash-baz. Isaiah's wife does not name the child contrary to what is prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 (cf. Isa. 8:3; Luke 1:31).
But if you read the context, you will find that they are one and same kid:

 3 So I approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Then the LORD said to me, "Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz;
 4 for before the boy knows how to cry out 'My father ' or 'My mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria."
 5 Again the LORD spoke to me further, saying,
 6 "Inasmuch as these people have rejected the gently flowing waters of Shiloah And rejoice in Rezin and the son of Remaliah;
 7 "Now therefore, behold, the Lord is about to bring on them the strong and abundant waters of the Euphrates, Even the king of Assyria and all his glory; And it will rise up over all its channels and go over all its banks.
 8 "Then it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass through, It will reach even to the neck; And the spread of its wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel. (Isa. 8:3-8 NAU)
 That passage twice associates the boy with an Assyrian invasion, once in v. 3-4, and again in v. 7-8.  Why Isaiah provides two names for the boy is anybody's guess, but it cannot be denied that it is one boy signifying one Assyrian invasion.
Isaiah also records how Immanuel will ultimately triumph over Judah's enemies and end exile (Isa. 8:10).
Correct, and the enemy in context, is the King of Assyria.  See v. 7.
Based upon this, Immanuel seems to be different than Maher-shalal-hash-baz. After all, the latter never delivers Judah from its enemies. Thus, Isaiah differentiates Immanuel from Maher-shalal-hash-baz.
 Dream on.  Your God is a stupid mother fucker if this is his idea of predicting events that wouldn't occur until 700 years after Isaiah and his generation die.
    Isaiah 8 also affirms the logic we observed in Isaiah 7:14-16. It describes how the Assyrian invasion will desolate Aram and Ephraim. However, it also discusses how the invasion will flood Judah, the "land of Immanuel" (8:5-8). If Immanuel is a sign that Israel's enemies will be destroyed resulting in Judah's salvation, why does Isaiah 8 state the opposite result occurs?
Gee, religious fanatics never contradict themselves, do they?  No sir, the bible is the inerrant word of God.
Instead, the description in Isaiah 8 fits with what I have suggested above. Isaiah 7 prophesies Immanuel would live in poverty because of the present circumstances. Isaiah 8 states the desolation of the Judah's enemies would lead to Judah's own desolation and so Immanuel will be born in exilic conditions.
And you want us to believe that although your god could have been a bit clearer about predicting Jesus, in his infinite wisdom he thought it best to couch "predictions" in past tense fortune-cookie language?  FUCK YOU.
    The rest of Isaiah 8-11 reinforces a messianic perspective to Isaiah 7:14. At the end of Isaiah 8, the prophet describes how Israel and its king will collapse in darkness (8:21-22).
Ahaz.
78 However, from that darkness a light will come (9:1-2 [Heb., 8:23-9:1]) based upon the birth of a child (v. 6 [Heb., v. 5]) who bears the authority of God upon his shoulders.
All biblical prophets had the authority of God on their shoulders.  you haven't narrowed this to Jesus.
This messianic individual in Isaiah 9:6 (Heb., v. 5) corresponds with Isaiah 7:14.79 Both record the birth and naming of a child associated with God's presence ("God with us" versus "Mighty God"). Both discuss how a child is born in exile and trial. Both texts ensure the security of the Davidic dynasty by virtue of the child's birth.
A thing that Jesus failed spectacularly in.  He was killed in 33 a.d., and no demonstrable evidence outside the dreams of biblical authors has expressed or implied that Jesus continued to rule over the Davidic dynasty for 2,000 years after he died.
With such parallels, Isaiah arguably equates his prophecy in 7:14 with the messianic figure in 9:6 (Heb., 9:5). This reinforces a messianic interpretation of Isaiah 7:14.
But you don't know how much went on in Isaiah's life between what he says in ch. 7 and what he says in ch. 8.  You might be seeing contextual inferences that were conjured up by the way Isaiah's post-exilic editors chose to put his ramblings together.

And don't forget Isaiah 8:18, where Isaiah explains that it is his own kids (plural) who are for signs to Israel.
Isaiah 11 also reiterates this. That chapter introduces a child-deliverer (Isa. 11:2) whose dominion is at the culmination of history (11:9-12).80 With that, Isaiah 11 repeats the same pattern of a royal child born who secures ultimate deliverance and reign.
At the time the deliverer of Isaiah 11 does his stuff, will also be the day when the wolf lies down with the lamb (metaphor for utopia actually achieved):
 6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. (Isa. 11:6 NAU)
 But before, during, and after Jesus' life, the only time the lamb laid down with the wolf is if the lamb was inside the wolf.  You lose.
The similarities and pattern argue that Isaiah tied all of these texts together.
More correctly, the evangelistic hopeful way that his post-exilic editors threw his shit together.
Isaiah shows how the Son born of a virgin in exile (Isa. 7:14) is the Son/Child who will conquer the exile (9:6 [Heb., v. 5]) and ultimately restore the world (11:1-12). Again, later texts reinforce Isaiah 7:14 is not just about the present but the future.
These factors illustrate what we have observed in this chapter. Isaiah did know complex theological concepts like the Messiah. His writing develops that idea (Isa. 9:6 [Heb., v. 5]; 11:2) which clarifies the nature of Isaiah 7:14. Isaiah also did not strictly write about his current situation but had in mind how the present relates to the future.
A future that was known to Isaiah's later editors.
Hence, he talks about how the current crisis relates to the sign of the ultimate deliverance and security for the Davidic dynasty (Immanuel). He writes with greater complexity than we might originally anticipate.
Or most people simply aren't as familiar with sophistry and illusion as jailhouse lawyers are.
One factor remains. Intertextuality not only helps us to see Isaiah's directionality but also his theological depth.
Translation:  "forget how the words of Isaiah were cobbled together over hundreds of years, seeing it the way inerrantists see it causes all sorts of entertaining theology to come bursting out." 
This relates to the sign itself, the virgin birth. One might ask how the sign of a young woman (rightly assumed to be a virgin) giving birth participates in Isaiah's theological agenda.81 Scholars have consistently wondered about this reality.82 Intertextuality can aid in this discussion.
No thanks, I prefer to see the problems of Isaiah's authorship and sources solved before I start dogmatizing about what he meant.  I was only arguing herein under YOUR assumptions that one person is responsible for the text.  God only knows to what degree editors of centuries after Isaiah changed the material that later became his ch. 7 and ch. 8.
The phrase "conceive and give birth" (×™ֹלֶ֣דֶ + ×”ָרָ×”֙) is actually a formula reiterated in the canon. The formula applies to individuals including Eve (Gen. 4:1), Hagar (16:11), Sarah (21:2), Jochebed (Ex. 2:2), the mother of Samson (Judg. 13:5), and Hannah (1 Sam. 1:20).83 Ruth is a close parallel (4:10).84 The births are often miraculous because God overcomes barrenness (Judg. 13:5; 1 Sam. 1:20) or provides protection from harm (Gen. 16:11). Accordingly, the sons born are important individuals in God's plan.
Precisely what the gospel authors would have known in first century Judaism.  Telling stories about Jesus being born of a virgin puts him on par with other important people in the OT.  How convenient.
The significance of the virgin birth seems to be an argument of lesser to greater. A virgin birth exceeds any other miraculous births. Consequently, the virgin-born Son is the most significant individual in redemptive history.
So significant that his virgin-birth status is nowhere attested in the NT except Matthew and Luke, despite your contention that such status strongly argues for his importance.  I'd say the NT authors did not agree on whether Jesus was born of a virgin.  Otherwise, they wouldn't neglect it any more than Protestant evangelicals neglect John 1:1.
He surpasses Isaac, Moses, Samson, or Samuel. In the context of Isaiah 7:14, the birth of this ultimate individual secures the Davidic dynasty and the restoration of a remnant (cf. Shear-Jashub, 7:3).
Then it cannot be Jesus, since Jesus died in disgrace in 33 a.d. and didn't "restore" jack shit.
He will be born in exile to end it.
Jesus did not end any exile.

Wednesday, December 27, 2017

Countering the Counter: Why evangelical defenses of the virgin birth are unconvincing

This is my reply to an article by "BK" entitled

Christianity Today published an article on December 20, 2017 entitled The Virgin Birth: What's the Problem Exactly? by Mark Galli. In the article, Galli set forth in a very concise form the arguments by those who contend that the Virgin Birth was either not true or not part of the earliest teachings of the church, and the responses to those arguments by those who support the historicity of the Virgin Birth.
Then "very concise" was Galli's problem, since the reasons supporting the skeptical position are weighty, and the Galli's "concise" articulation of the evangelical replies wasn't sufficient to pass historiography muster.
Since I had never seen the arguments set forth in this fashion before, and since Christianity Today articles drop behind a paid wall after awhile, I wanted to share the summarized arguments on the blog. Galli writes:
For the fundamentalists, the Virgin Birth is a consequence of belief in inerrancy, Christ’s deity, and the belief in the miraculous. This is one large reason why it was singled it out for defense. A lot depended on this doctrine. The main lines of liberal argument against it were: 1. It is not mentioned in the rest of the New Testament; Paul, in particular, doesn’t ever discuss it. Likewise, it is rarely mentioned in the first three centuries of the church’s existence.
And we'd naturally expect to see mention of it in such early sources if in fact that story was believed by the early Christians to be a doctrinally and historically true fact.
2. Matthew and Luke were using a faulty translation (the Septuagint) of Isaiah 7:14, which in the original Hebrew did not predict that a “virgin” would conceive a coming messiah, but only a “young woman” would. Thus they either made up the story or shaped it according to their misunderstanding.
The better skeptical argument is that a) Isaiah provided enough details in 7:13-16 to show that the "sign" was something for King Ahaz back there in 700 b.c., and b) Isaiah 7:14 was never characterized by pre-Christian Jews as messianic, or messianic prophecy.
3. It imitates pagan and Jewish myths that credit virginal conception to spiritual heroes.
It does.  Pindar's Pythian Ode # 12 is the oldest of the Zeus + Danae stories, and says he got her pregnant while he was in the form of a mist of gold, then it continues to characterize her as the "virgin goddess" even while she is in the midst of labor pains giving birth to Perseus.  So that's the concept of virgin birth existing in 400 b.c.  Sorry, but all Matthew and Luke were doing was taking an older motif and putting a new spin on it.  As any dummy the least bit familiar with copyright issues knows, you don't have to imitate the original with exactitude, before the investigators can be reasonable to conclude you got your idea from a prior source.  You cannot find an exactly precursors for Medusa, but you are perfectly certain that such a story character was the result of ancient Greeks taking parts of older legends, adding some new twists, and coming up with a new idea.  The single solitary reason you don't like the idea of Matthew and Luke having done that is that such admission would destroy your wood and stone idols of bible inerrancy.  
4. It’s not possible for a human being to be conceived outside of intercourse between a man and a woman, and that’s the only way God providentially designed humans to be fruitful and multiply.
I'd never make that argument.
These were easily countered by fundamentalist authors. They replied:    
3. That other religions have similar stories has no bearing on whether this particular story is historically true.
On the contrary, the more Christianity looks like its pagan ancestors, the more justification we have to say Christianity was nothing more than a new twist on older motifs.
It just indicates that the idea of virginal conception didn’t seem preposterous in that age.
Precisely because stories of gods having sex with humans was typical in that age.
4. More recent science has shown that parthenogenesis (asexual reproduction) is possible in plants and some animals, if extremely rare (see “Virgin Births Happen all the Time,” by Ted Olsen). The fundamentalist reply of the time would have simply been to say, “Who says God could not or would not do this?”
I don't see the point, as a fundamentalist you are stuck forever with defending Matthews and Luke's specifications that the seed of Christ was planted by God in Mary's womb.  You cannot shake the parallel to pre-Christian religions by simply noting that science acknowledges parthenogenesis sometimes occurs in lower life forms.
1. It was not discussed by Paul and other New Testament writers, nor by writers in the early church, because it was not controversial.
You don't know that this was the reason for their silence toward it, that's nothing but a possibility.  The winners of the historical debate are those whose reasons are more likely true than those theories which merely stay at the "possible" level.  First, the scholarly consensus is that Mark was the earliest published gospel, so it appears conclusive that the earliest form of the gospel said nothing about a virgin birth.  Second, the virgin birth stories show Jesus to be Lord from birth and strongly support a claim that he was God's Son, one of Mark's main themes.  It doesn't matter if it is "possible" for Mark to have knowingly refused to use material he believed doctrinally and historically correct to substantiate his teachings, people don't normally walk away from their best evidence and rely on lesser sources, therefore, it is more likely that Mark's silence on the virgin birth is because he either didn't know about it, or felt it was a legend unworthy of the gospel.  Third, it is the same problem with the other NT authors.  The virgin birth story says much that would have been particularly useful to them in combating adoptionist heretics who said Jesus' sonship to God didn't start until he was baptised or resurrected, even if those adoptionists somehow still believed Jesus to be born of a virgin, because the canonical versions of the stories clearly indicate Jesus' divine sonship began at his birth.
There was no reason to argue for it because no one doubted it.
Then under your logic, everything else that the NT "argues for", it does so because the subject was doubted within the church.  Under your logic, everything Mark did jot down in his gospel, he recorded because there were doubts in the church about those things.  So I guess the reason Mark does mention the public ministry of Jesus and his resurrection is because the original church was internally split on those matters?

I guess that means that the original church was fraught with internal divisions on the resurrection of Jesus, the significance of his death and what exactly he said and did.  If you say a NT author's mentioning something doesn't imply there were doubters, then you cannot argue from their silence that it was never doubted.

There was room in the original church for the idea of maintaining silence toward a thing because it was viewed as immoral or doctrinally incorrect.  See Ephesians 5:12, where one such reason was that certain things done by others in secret was best kept out of one's conversation.
The fact that it emerges in the Nicene Creed without argument or debate suggests this was indeed the case and that it was a core belief for Christians.
If you date Mark to 50 a.d. to grant any fundies' wet dream, you've got at least 275 years between Mark and the Council of Nicaea.  Some would argue that is plenty of time for false doctrines to take hold.  Notably the scholarly consensus is that Mark was neglected in favor of Matthew throughout the early church, and this is easily explained as Matthew's being richer in details.  But it tells you nothing about whether Matthew's author was inventing stories or passing along false traditions.
2. Biblical prophecies work on many levels, some literally,
Not so. Take your best example of a bible "prophecy" that you believe was fulfilled, and let's get started.
some metaphorically, and some both. We see the New Testament writers using a great freedom in using such prophecies.
So much freedom that they, like "heretics", often obtain their fulfillments by taking such bible passages out of context.  ONly desperate apologists would carp that the NT authors should be allowed to take the OT out of context.  People without an ax to grind prefer condemning everybody who take things out of context.  You cannot use "second temple exegesis" to disguise the hard truth here.  I don't care if Paul's argument from singular "seed" in Galatians 3:16 was consistent with second-temple hermenuetics, anybody who takes something out of context, deserves censure.  It's not like there's some law of the universe saying some people are correct to take the bible out of context.
Besides, Mary was clearly a “young woman,” which Isaiah foresaw under the inspiration of the Spirit; that she was also a virgin is revealed in the Gospel accounts.
Again, nothing in pre-Christian Judaism took Isaiah 7:14 as messianic, and the context makes clear that the sign was a political development Ahaz was promised to see within his own lifetime, putting the burden on the Christians to show that Matthew's use was legitimated by Isaiah's immediate context.  By so whittling down this messianic prophecy to the purely typological, it's apologetic worth is ultimately negated.  Stop wasting your time with it.
In fact, the assumptions of 19th-century liberal theologians arose not from indisputable objective starting points but from unprovable assumptions. Most were strict materialists, or close to it, and believed that anything that happened in history had to have a material cause.
Since it defies coherence to say something happened in the material world that did not have a material cause, sounds like the naturalist interpretation of history is probably going to win any specific debate on the subject. Feel free to take your best shot.
Fundamentalists countered that the Bible, in fact, has a different starting point: God intervenes in history now and then, and when he does and it defies the laws of nature, it’s called a miracle.
Oh gee, an ancient book has a different starting point than modern science.  Let's just say your doing a rather poor job of giving me the slightest reason to worry about naturalism being wrong.

What follows is the response I posted to the CADRE blog on December 27, 2017 after whittling it down to meet the word limits:
---------------
"1. Silence due to nobody doubting it"
-------The author doesn't do a very good job of supporting his interpretation of Mark's silence.  His conclusions, i.e., that no one doubted it because it wasn't controversial, don't count because they are conclusions, not arguments.  That leaves only his absurd argument that the VB found its way into the Nicene Creed without controversy.  Granting for the sake of argument the fundie dream that Mark is dated to about 50 a.d., that's 275 years between Mark's original and the Council of Nicaea.  Some would argue 275 years is plenty of time for false legends and fables to deceive a substantial portion of the church.  False rumors about the apostles took strong root in the original church within the lifetimes of those apostles, see Acts 21:17-27.
 "2. Biblical prophecies."
-------I've yet to see any Christian scholar or apologist convincingly argue that any bible prophecy was fulfilled literally, that is, in a way that "god" is the best explanation for the biblical data.  I'll debate anybody on Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 53-55, Daniel 9, or whatever biblical prophecy you think is most impervious to a naturalistic interpretation.
 " We see the New Testament writers using a great freedom in using such prophecies."
------Leading to disagreements among Christian scholars on the matter (i.e., Three Views on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament (Counterpoints: Bible and Theology, 2008, by Kenneth Berding, editor), thus rationally warranting the unbelieving reader to turn away from the entire bible prophecy business, concluding that if spiritually alive people can't figure it out, spiritually dead people are only going to fare worse.
 "Isaiah was inspired by God."
-------So apparently the author wasn't writing for skeptics, but solely for Christian readers, for whom Isaiah's inspiration and gospel accuracy are foregone conclusions.  Edifying to the Christian, laughable to the skeptic.
 "3. That other religions have similar stories has no bearing on whether this particular story is historically true."
--------You cannot find either numerous or precise parallels to Medusa in pre-Medusa pagan stories, but that doesn't slow you down from saying the Greeks more than likely just took older similar but not exact motifs and gave them a new twist to create this gorgon monster, correct?  Why should anybody think Matthew and Luke are doing anything different?  One apparent proof that Matthew wasn't above creating fiction is Acts 11:18, not at all consistent with the apostles agreeing with Matthew 4:15 that Jesus had preached salvation to the Gentiles...
 " It just indicates that the idea of virginal conception didn’t seem preposterous in that age."
----It could also indicate what it had indicated to Justin Martyr, i.e., making Jesus sound more like the heroes of pre-Christian mythology would increase the odds of the unbelieving pagan audiences taking Jesus' claims more seriously than they otherwise would have.
 Fundies are committed to defending Matthew's and Luke's reasons for the story, that God really did get Mary pregnant while "overshadowing" this young teen girl.  Sorry, but this is just Zeus by another name.
 Since the consensus of Christian scholars is that Mark is the earliest among the canonical 4, you likely won't be using Matthean priority to justify saying Mark intentionally omitted the VB.
 If the consensus of spiritually alive Christian scholars can be wrong, that's a powerful incentive for the unbelieving reader to conclude that spiritually dead people will only fare worse entering this fray, thus giving them rational warrant and reasonable justification to turn away from the whole business entirely.
 A copy of my comments here will be posted at my own blog.

Monday, December 18, 2017

Cold-Case Christianity: Rebuttal to Wallace's 5 reasons for trusting the Nativity stories

This is my reply to an article by J. Warner Wallace entitled

Story of Christmas Is True.  Detectives create lists. As a cold-case detective, I’m no different. When investigating an event in the distant past (in my case, an unsolved murder), I collect evidence, make lists and do my best to reach the most reasonable inference.
And if the theory of the suspects innocence required you to believe some alibi premised on a miracle (i.e., he was in two places at once), you'd become an anti-supernaturalist real quick.  So apparently, skepticism toward miracles really does deserve to be the default position.  Not even Christians will acknowledge miracles where they are alleged to occur outside their own religion.
When I began to investigate Christianity at the age of thirty-five, I approached the gospels the same way I approached my cold-case files. Lists were an important part of the process. One New Testament claim was particularly interesting to me: the conception and birth of Jesus. When I first read through the gospels, the birth narratives seemed incredible and unreasonable. I’m not the only person to express such a concern. In an article posted in the Herald Scotland, Reverend Andrew Frater called the Nativity story a “fanciful, fairy tale” and called on Christians to “disentangle the truth from the tinsel”. Frater is a minister and a believer, and even he doesn’t believe in the virgin conception of Jesus. As an atheist, I was even more skeptical. I rejected supernatural claims altogether, and the first Biblical claim about Jesus was a supernatural one.
But as I collected the evidence and formed my lists, I found there were many good reasons to trust the story of Christmas.
Which means you disagree with most Christian scholars since they reject the nativity stories.  No, it is not only fundamentalist evangelicals who qualify as Christian scholars.
I’ve assembled them here with links to longer treatments of each topic:
 Reason 1:
The Supernatural Nature of the Virgin Conception Shouldn’t Disqualify It
When I began to investigate the virgin conception, I was actually investigating my own philosophical naturalism. I was, in essence, asking the following questions: “Is the natural world all that exists?” “Is there anything beyond the physical, material world we measure with our five senses?” “Are supernatural events possible or even reasonable?” In asking these questions, I was putting naturalism to the test. It would have been unfair, therefore, to begin by presupposing nothing supernatural could ever exist or occur.
Not if you had first tested supernaturalism and found it less epistemically justified than naturalism, as I have.
If we want to be fair about assessing the virgin conception or any other supernatural aspect of the nativity story, we cannot exclude the very possibility of the supernatural in the first place.
We can if we already possess powerful arguments justifying a general rejection of supernaturalism.  But you were writing for Christians who already agree with your views here, so I understand the lack of rigor.
Our presupposition against the supernatural would unfairly taint our examination of the claim.
And your presupposition that God doesn't teleport people between New York and Los Angeles at the speed of light would likewise unfairly taint your examination of a criminal's alibi, where such miracle was being claimed as the basis for innocence of a crime.  You know perfectly well that miracles don't happen, that's why you conduct your criminal investigations under the exact degree of anti-supernaturalism that you condemn atheists for using.  If somebody's alibi asserted levitation as the reason they are not guilty of a crime, you wouldn't care if it was corroborated by 12 of his best friends, you'd just say that increases the number of liars from 1 to 13.  God never does miracles, and you know it perfectly well, at least, whenever your religious defense mechanisms aren't on red-alert.
Reason 2:
The Claim of the Virgin Conception Appears Incredibly Early in Christian History
It’s always easier to tell a lie once everyone who was alive to know the difference has already died.
It's also easier to avoid having the corpse of Jesus used to falsify your claims that he rose from the dead if you wait 40 days after his death before you claim such a thing.  Read Acts chapter 1.
But if you’re going to make a claim early in an area where people are still available to debunk your claim, be prepared to have a difficult time getting away with misrepresentations.
In other words, if those who believe Benny Hinn does real miracles, are going to make a claim early in an area where people are still available to debunk the claim, they need to be prepared to have a difficult time getting away with misrepresentations.  Atheists and even many Christian scholars and the secular media have been debunking Hinn's claims for decades, yet Hinn's popularity did nothing but grow that whole time.
The virgin conception of Jesus is one of the earliest claims in Christian history.
No, if the consensus of Christian scholars is correct in saying Mark was the earliest gospel, then the earliest form of the gospel did not have a virgin birth story to tell.

Again, if the consensus of Christian scholars is correct in saying Paul was proclaiming the gospel in 40 a.d. at least a decade before the 4 canonical written versions were published,  then the earliest form of the gospel did not have a virgin birth story to tell.

Again, aside from Matthew and Luke, none of the NT authors mentions the nativity stories or shows the least bit of knowledge about them, so it is reasonable to thus conclude that the earliest form of the gospel did not have a virgin birth story to tell, and therefore, Matthew and Luke represent a late embellishment of the originally more simple version of the story.
The students of the gospel authors cited the virgin conception as a true claim about Jesus.
No they didn't. Mark was the earliest student of the gospel preacher called Peter, if the patristic traditions can generally be trusted.  Mark says nothing about a virgin birth.
Ignatius, the student of John (an Apostle who chose not to write about the birth of Jesus in his own gospel), included it in his early writings to local churches. Other Church leaders repeated the claim through the earliest years of the Church, and the doctrine also appears in the most ancient Church creeds. Even early non-canonical documents include the virgin conception of Jesus.
All your evidence dates after 70 a.d., when Matthew and Luke had already embellished Mark's earlier and more simple form of the story.
Reason 3:
The Birth Narratives in Luke and Matthew Are Not Late Additions
Critics, in an effort to argue the birth narratives in Luke and Matthew are not reliable, point to stylistic differences and “content shifting” within the gospels. Critics claim that the Greek language used in the birth narrative section of Luke’s gospel is far more Semitic than other sections. But the fact that this section of the gospel is stylistically or linguistically different than other sections does not mean it was a late addition.
When investigating history, you don't discard some explanatory theory to account for the data, merely because the theory is not a "knock-down".
Luke told us he compiled the information for his gospel from a number of divergent sources (Luke 1:1-4).
Which means you must be writing solely for the trusting Christian audiences you ceaselessly peddle your marketing gimmicks to, since an ancient historian's claims about sources doesn't tell you whether he is being truthful or dishonest.  You don't have the first fucking clue who Luke' originally intended audience was beyond a ferverishly unidentfiable "Theophilus", yet knowing who that audience was is critical to ascertaining how honest Luke was in what he had to say.
As a result, we should expect stylistic and linguistic differences within the gospel of Luke.
Yes, Luke's use of various sources is a possible explanation for the stylistic differences found within his gospel.  It's not the only explanation, yet here you fallacious leap from "possible" to "probable" with no reason given why your favored theory is better than the others.
In addition, any claim related to the late addition of the birth narratives defies all the manuscript evidence available to us; there is absolutely no evidence that the gospel of Matthew and Luke ever existed without the birth narratives.
But in the case of Mark as the earliest gospel, we are forced to conclude that the earliest form of the gospel said nothing about a virgin birth.
All manuscripts, translations, early Church documents and references to the gospels, along with every historic, reliable witness testifies to the fact that the birth narratives are ancient and part of the original record.
And likewise there are no manuscripts of Mark or patristic statements saying that gospel had once included the nativity story.  So Mark's silence on that story is likely something original to Mark and not the result of Markan material being lost or edited out.
Reason 4:
The Virgin Conception Was Not An Invention of Early Christians
Some critics of the virgin conception argue that the earliest Christian authors inserted it in an effort to give Jesus a “heroic” birth consistent with other Old Testament heroes.But, not every Jewish hero from the Old Testament had an unusual birth story.
That is irrelevant.  This skeptical argument doesn't require every OT hero to have an unusual birth.  The fact that SOME did is plenty to justify early Christians in thinking that conjuring up an unusual birth story about Jesus would raise him to the level of some OT heroes.
Joshua, King David and King Solomon are just three of the more obvious examples of powerful Old Testament heroes whose birth stories were less than surprising or unusual. In addition, there is no other character from the Old Testament who was born of a virgin through the miraculous conception of the Holy Spirit.
Unfortunately for you, the closer parallel to Jesus is Moses, since Jesus took the place of Moses in modifying and explaining Mosaic law, and Moses' birth was dramatic.  Nothing says the forger's copy must imitate the original in all its particulars, or even most, to justify saying imitation was indeed attempted.
This characteristic of Jesus’ conception is unique to Jesus and follows no pre-existing Old Testament pattern.
Ever hear of putting new twists on old themes?  Who says the twist has to imitate the original exactly before it can be legitimately called a plagiarism?  If I wrote a book entitled "Cold-Case Atheism: A Homicide Detective Refutes the Claims of the Gospels", would you deny I was imitating your own stuff merely because the imitation wasn't exact?   Well then, stop pretending as if the failure of the nativity stories to match pre-Christian stories in particular details, must mean the Christians responsible for such stories were not borrowing older ideas and putting new twists on them.
Reason 5:
The Virgin Conception Wasn’t Borrowed from Another Source
Skeptics also attempt to discredit the virgin conception of Jesus by claiming it was borrowed from prior pagan mythologies such as those of Mithras or Horus.
Count me out.  As a skeptic I agree with Celsus that the virgin birth story was borrowed from the earliest version of the story about how Zeus got Danae pregnant while he was in the form of a golden mist (i.e., pregnancy achieved without breaking the hymen).  See Pindar's Pythian Ode # 12, securely dated several hundred years before the 1st century, which says in part:
Perseus, the son of Danae, who they say was conceived in a spontaneous shower of gold. But when the virgin goddess had released that beloved man from those labors, she created the many-voiced song of flutes [20] so that she could imitate with musical instruments the shrill cry that reached her ears from the fast-moving jaws of Euryale.
Notice that she is called a virgin goddess who releases Perseus by labor (giving birth).  Pindar apparently thinks she continues to be rightfully classified as a virgin even during her pregnancy.  Yes, Pindar's poetry constitutes nothing but fiction, of course, but your problem is that the idea of a women continuing to be a virgin even after a god got her pregnant, is certainly found in pagan pre-Christian writings, therefore, you cannot pretend that the copycat savior hypothesis is impossible, and you cannot pretend that the virgin-birth of Jesus was an original concept.  You will have to up your game and argue that despite virgin births existing in pre-Christian literature, Matthew and Luke were not influenced by them.  Good luck and thank Christ you don't intend to convince anybody of your bullshit except other fundamentalist evangelicals who already agree with everything you have to say.
But any fair examination of pagan mythological birth narratives revels the dramatic differences between the virgin conception of Jesus and stories about the supernatural emergence of mythological gods.
My Chevy pickup has many differences from a Model-T too, so apparently under your logic, the idea for the Chevy model came about wholly independent of any notion of the Model-T.  Only a desperate apologists would insist that in the case of my Chevy and the Model-T, "the differences outweigh the similarities".
While “borrowing” may have occurred between belief systems, the weak resemblances between the Biblical account and pagan mythologies are far more likely the result of the Judeo-Christian influence rather than contamination from a pagan source.
Not in the case of Pindar's Pythian Ode # 12, which is securely dated to at least 400 b.c., so the direction of borrowing is clear and Christianity is thus the party clearly guilty of doing the borrowing.
It’s irrational to believe the early Jewish readers of the gospels would embrace any part of paganism in the story of Jesus’ conception as continuous with the Jewish narrative from the Old Testament.
We don't know exactly how "orthodox" were the alleged Jews that Matthew and Luke allegedly wrote for.  But with Jews like Philo on the scene in the first-century, don't be too sure that Jews would oppose mixing bits of their beliefs with bits of pagan superstition.
In addition, early Christian converts were repeatedly called to a new life in Christ, told they were merely travelers passing through this mortal (and pagan) world, called to live a life that was free of worldly influences, and told to reject the foolish philosophies and stories of men.
And the church fathers like Justin Martyr explain that the reason we find virgin births in pre-Christian paganism is because the devils foreknew the truth about Christ, and sought to retroactively imitate it, so that when the real thing later came along in actual life, men would errantly count it is just another story instead of the truth.
Justin, First Apology, Chapter LIV.—Origin of Heathen Mythology.
But those who hand down the myths which the poets have made, adduce no proof to the youths who learn them; and we proceed to demonstrate that they have been uttered by the influence of the wicked demons, to deceive and lead astray the human race. For having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come, and that the ungodly among men were to be punished by fire, they put forward many to be called sons of Jupiter, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things which were said with regard to Christ were mere marvellous tales, like the things which were said by the poets. And these things were said both among the Greeks and among all nations where they [the demons] heard the prophets foretelling that Christ would specially be believed in; but that in hearing what was said by the prophets they did not accurately understand it, but imitated what was said of our Christ, like men who are in error, we will make plain. The prophet Moses, then, was, as we have already said, older than all writers; and by him, as we have also said before, it was thus predicted: “There shall not fail a prince from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until He come for whom it is reserved; and He shall be the desire of the Gentiles, binding His foal to the vine, washing His robe in the blood of the grape.”115 The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine, and they number wine116 [or, the ass] among his mysteries; and they taught that, having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven. And because in the prophecy of Moses it had not been expressly intimated whether He who was to come was the Son of God, and whether He would, riding on the foal, remain on earth or ascend into heaven, and because the name of “foal” could mean either the foal of an ass or the foal of a horse, they, not knowing whether He who was foretold would bring the foal of an ass or of a horse as the sign of His coming, nor whether He was the Son of God, as we said above, or of man, gave out that Bellerophon, a man born of man, himself ascended to heaven on his horse Pegasus. And when they heard it said by the other prophet Isaiah, that He should be born of a virgin, and by His own means ascend into heaven, they pretended that Perseus was spoken of. And when they knew what was said, as has been cited above, in the prophecies written aforetime, “Strong as a giant to run his course,”117 they said that Hercules was strong, and had journeyed over the whole earth. And when, again, they learned that it had been foretold that He should heal every sickness, and raise the dead, they produced Aesculapius.
Chapter 21  Analogies To The History Of Christ
And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Aesculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. This only shall be said, that they are written for the advantage and encouragement of youthful scholars; for all reckon it an honorable thing to imitate the gods. But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire. 
Chapter 22  Analogies To The Sonship Of Christ
Moreover, the Son of God called Jesus, even if only a man by ordinary generation, yet, on account of His wisdom, is worthy to be called the Son of God; for all writers call God the Father of men and gods. And if we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God. But if any one objects that He was crucified, in this also He is on a par with those reputed sons of Jupiter of yours, who suffered as we have now enumerated. For their sufferings at death are recorded to have been not all alike, but diverse; so that not even by the peculiarity of His sufferings does He seem to be inferior to them; but, on the contrary, as we promised in the preceding part of this discourse, we will now prove Him superior - or rather have already proved Him to be so - for the superior is revealed by His actions. And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Perseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by Aesculapius.  ---------Schaff, P. (2000). The Ante-Nicene Fathers (electronic ed.). GarlandTX: Galaxie Software.
Chapter LXIX.--The devil, since he emulates the truth, has invented fables about Bacchus, Hercules, and AEsculapius.
Chapter LXIV.—Further Misrepresentations of the Truth.
From what has been already said, you can understand how the devils, in imitation of what was said by Moses, asserted that Proserpine was the daughter of Jupiter, and instigated the people to set up an image of her under the name of Kore [Cora, i.e., the maiden or daughter] at the spring-heads.
Wallace continues:
This group, in particular, would be the last to turn to pre-existing pagan stories and superstitions.
Correct, that group wanted their followers to believe some superstitions were gospel-truth.
If there exists a supernatural Being capable of bringing all space, time and matter into existence from nothing,
If a baby could lift 4 billion tons using nothing but his own unaided muscular strength, while also being in two places at the same time...
such a Being could certainly accomplish the virgin conception of Jesus, the Resurrection of Christ, or any of the other “lesser” miracles described on the pages of the New Testament.
The issue is not whether God could.  The issue is whose theory on the nativity stories accords better with normative principles of historiography.  That would be mine.  You lose.
In addition, there is no historically, textually or philosophically necessary reason to reject the claims of the New Testament authors.
And so you typically end your case with preaching to the choir.  I think you forgot to add that moody music that makes people feel so much better at the close of the service.  The Holy Spirit needs every psychological bell and whistle you can come up with.  If you ask, I'll give you Frank Turek's phone number.  He can show you how modern video animations and expensive apologetics vacation seminars wherein you do little more than make yourself the center of attention, can help the Holy Spirit do a better job than He ever did in the first 1900 years, to convict people of sin.

Or maybe you could read something by Clement of Alexandria and discover for the first time in your life that you and 90% of today's Christians are an absurd departure from the oldest post-apostolic definition of a morally good Christian.
If you’re a Christian this Christmas season, celebrate the birth of Jesus with confidence and certainty. The virgin conception is not a fanciful, fairy tale. It is a true story. In fact, there are five good reasons to trust the story of Christmas is factual, reliable and true.
And all five have been refuted on the merits.  I suggest you dedicate your life to defending Mark as a secondary gospel, otherwise, his more simple form of the gospel is going to look like the earliest form and accordingly make Matthew's and Luke's later versions more likely to be the one's whose differences from Mark constitute later fictional embellishments.

My reply to Bellator Christi's "Three Dangerous Forms of Modern Idolatry"

I received this in my email, but the page it was hosted on appears to have been removed  =====================  Bellator Christi Read on blo...