Demolishing Triablogue: No, Steve Hays, ticking time-bombs aren't relevant to child-rape

This is my reply to an article by Steve Hays entitled

Causing evil

A stock objection to Calvinism goes something like this: it is evil to cause evil.

That's because the only exception anybody perceives to the rule, is when Calvinists need to get their ass out of a theological jam.

But the God of Calvinism causes evil (or determines evil, which amounts to the same thing). Indeed, the God of Calvinism causes human agents to commit evil. Yet making someone else do evil is at least as bad if not worse than doing it yourself.

And only religion would motivate a person to consider that causing evil might be good.

Let's examine that objection. Take the ticking timebomb scenario. Many people think torturing a terrorist to find out where the bomb is hidden, to save innocent lives, is immoral.

Not if the good of torturing him is likely to outweigh the bad of hundreds of people dying in an explosion. Your argument here might refute ridiculous liberals who think Constitutional rights are the inerrant word of God, but that's a far cry from arguing that your Calvinist god is "good" for causing men to rape children to death.

Why is that immoral? Presumably, they think torture is wrong because they think excruciating pain is evil. If so, then it's evil to cause excruciating pain.

You won't find anything in the NT to support the idea of Christians inflicting pain for the sake of a greater good, except in the irrelevant sense of excommunication or shunning.

If they don't think excruciating pain is evil, then it's unclear why they think torture is wrong. They might not think that's the only reason torture is wrong. They might think torture is wrong in part because coercion is wrong. But presumably they think the evil of excruciating pain is a necessary condition of what makes torture wrong, in cases where torture utilizes pain. Indeed, pain is coercive. The two are inseparable in that scenario.

You'd do a better job had you addressed the real problem:  Your god thinks it is "good" to cause men to rape little kids to death.  Deal with that.  What, your all-powerful God just couldn't achieve his purposes in any other way than to predestine a man to rape a child to death?  Either your god is a scumbag, or he isn't all-powerful.  Since you are a Calvinist, you likely won't be invoking W.L. Craig's "what if" scenarios whereby his evaporating illusions take the place of serious argumentation.

The justification for torturing the terrorist is to save innocent lives. But since they regard torture as intrinsically wrong, the goal, however noble, can't justify that expedient. So goes the argument.
 But let's vary the illustration. Take a field medic during the Civil War who operates without anesthetic, because none is available. If excruciating pain is evil, then it's evil for the medic to inflict excruciating pain on his patients. Yet most of us think his action is justified. He must amputate the arms and legs of gunshot victims to prevent the greater evil of death by gangrene. Yet in that event, there are situations in which causing evil isn't evil.
 In addition, suppose there's a patient he's loathe to save. It may be the enemy. But the field commander orders him to operate on that patient because the field commander wants to pump the enemy soldier for information. He may force the unwilling medic to operate at gunpoint if need be.
 That would mean he's causing an agent to commit evil, assuming that pain is evil. If, on the other hand, we grant that it's not inherently evil to cause the evil of inflicting pain, then it's not evil to cause an agent to cause evil, in that respect. At least, that seems to break the chain of inference.
 Although that's a hypothetical comparison, it has a real-world counterpart. We experience physical pain because God designed the human body to have that sensitivity. But if excruciating pain is evil, then that means God causes evil by designing and making bodies with sensitivity.
 Let's consider some objections to my argument:
 i) Pain isn't good or bad in itself. Rather, it's context-dependent. For instance, pain can be a warning sign to avert or avoid greater harm. The painful sensation of burning deters us from taking chances with fire. Temporary pain protects us from greater harm.
 One potential problem with that reply is that it makes it harder to oppose torture in the ticking timebomb scenario.

But it kills you in the context of a man raping a child to death, since the resulting pain there cannot be rationally said to be "required" to achieve any greater good (otherwise, you'd have to commit to the premise that the child who survives a rape is better off than had they been spared the experience).  The bible doesn't present God as causing men to do such things for the sake of a greater good, but that he causes men to do such things to punish nations in a corporate manner.  Isaiah 13, Hosea 13, Deut. 28.  Christians who feel a sense of unfairness when bad luck comes their way, simply don't know their bibles...god will cause a man to rape a woman solely because she belongs to a sinful nation.  The corporate guilt doctrine in the bible is utterly lost on mainstream Christianity.

In both cases, you have an ends-means justification. If the deterrent value of pain to avoid death or serious injury by fire justifies pain, then why not torturing a terrorist to save innocent lives? Both utilize temporary pain. Both justify harm for a greater good.
 ii) We absolve the field medic because he lacked access to anesthetics. But the analogy breaks down in application to God, who doesn't suffer from analogous limitations.
 Up to a point that's true, but I'm testing the principle. The objection makes blanket statement: it is evil to cause evil. Or it is evil to cause another agent to cause evil.
 If, however, there are exceptions, then that isn't wrong in principle. It depends on the situation. If something is intrinsically wrong, that precludes exceptions.

So do you think child-rape is intrinsically wrong, Steve?  Or do you call child-rape good because the doctrine of divine command theory requires to you automatically label as good anything God causes to happen?  Let's do this by syllogism;

Premise One - consistent Calvinism says God is always responsible for causing men to rape children
Premise Two - All of God's acts are righteous.
Conclusion - God is righteous in causing men to rape children

We have to wonder:  Does Steve think God ever punishes people for doing what God wanted them to to?

Notice how the Calvinist God must think:

"I'm going to make babysitter Bill rape that 4 year old girl to death.  Then I'm going to cause him to have a strong feeling of personal guilt over it, and to conclude in his mind that he is inexcusably culpable and guilty, and I will further cause him to think, contrary to the biblical truth of my infallible predestining decree for all human choices, that his refraining from doing that crime was always just as legitimate and real of a possibility as was his ultimate choice to commit it."

We have to wonder:  What would God do to a Calvinist who got just as happy at the news that his 7 year old daughter was raped, as he was upon discovering that his daughter graduated from second to third grade?

If God wanted the girl raped, why does God put in the hearts of most humans a feeling of revulsion and hatred toward those who carry out certain aspects of God's will?

What sense does it make to say we should only be happy when certain limited aspects of God's will are actualized on earth?  If God's righteousness is vindicated in his causing men to rape children no less than it is when he causes Calvinists to donate to charity, then logically there cannot be any moral difference between getting happy about God's will being done on earth, and getting happy about God's will being done on earth.

Did God, during the earthly ministry of Jesus, want the Jews to obey his revealed will?

Yes (Luke 13:34)
No (Calvinist doctrine of God's sovereignty; God infallibly ordains whatsoever comes to pass).

So under Calvinism, God both wants and doesn't want the Jews to obey his revealed will.  If God appears to you and says "I want you to give $10 to this person", you'd be presumptuous to conclude that God is being honest.  Just because God says he wants you to do something, doesn't necessarily mean that he actually wants you to do it (!?).

Now you know why Calvinists take more pleasure in sin than other Christians.  Not only is it God who is causing you to screw the neighbor's spouse, thus falsifying any notion that you could have chosen otherwise, but your adultery glorifies God no less than does your donating food to a local charity.

And only a fool says God doesn't wish to be glorified.

Calvinism is a good illustration of how bible inerrancy can sicken the human mind, as apparently the religion becomes more important than logical consistency.  And since most Christian scholars think Calvinism is bullshit, Steve Hays cannot relegate my critique of his Calvinism to my alleged spiritual deadness/blindness...lest he step even deeper into his cultic mindset and accuse all anti-Calvinist Christians of spiritual deadness/blindness.

Demolishing Triablogue: Steve Hays helps unbelievers stop worrying about hell

This is my reply to an article by Steve Hays entitled

Scandinavian hell
I'd like to make a brief observation about hell. There are Christians, apostates, and atheists who get carried away with the poetic imagery.

And the more even spiritually alive people get hell wrong, the more justification spiritually dead people have to toss the entire business out the window, knowing they can only do worse if they try.

If, however, the Bible was originally revealed in, say, Iceland, the Yukon, or Scandinavia, rather than a hot dry climate like Palestine, the hellish imagery might instead draw on snow and ice, arctic temperatures, a polar vortex, and a continuous polar night.

So if the bible was originally revealed in, say, Sacramento California, 1986, the hellish imagery might instead draw on constant traffic, ceaseless urban growth and non-stop crime.  

The "geography" of hell is based on the Middle East. The "geography" of hell would vary if originally revealed in regions with different landscape and climate. The metaphors are to some degree culturebound. A tropical depiction of hell might be characterized by an abundance of nasty reptiles and stinging insects.

The problem being that your alleged God refuses to specify exactly what hell is.  Yet under Calvinism, despite God predestining me to fault him for such ambiguity, I'm still "without excuse" for doing what God forced me to do.

Calvinism makes me feel better about rejecting the gospel...there was no way I could have contradicted God's reprobative decree.  It's out of my hands, so any sense of personal responsibility on my part can only be a misleading illusion.

Cold Case Christianity: Why does J. Warner Wallace run away from this rule of evidence?

How the Rules of Evidence Can Ready Evangelism – Part 1 (Cold Case Christianity Broadcast #100) Posted: 28 Dec 2017 01:56 AM PST In this episode of the Cold-Case Christianity Broadcast, J. Warner continues to discuss the practices and principles of good investigators and applies these techniques to the Christian worldview. When juries are asked to evaluate a case, they are instructed in the rules of evidence. In this episode, J. Warner discusses three important evidence instructions: 1. The fact the other side can make a case doesn’t mean it’s true, 2. Everything has the potential to be used as evidence, and 3. Whoever makes the claim, has the burden of proof. J. Warner demonstrates how a proper understanding of these rules can help you prepare people to hear the case for Christianity. This approach is described in more detail inForensic Faith: A Homicide Detective Makes the Case for a More Reasonable, Evidential Christian Faith. Be sure to check out Forensic Faith and the accompanying curriculum. Be sure to watch the Cold-Case Christianity Broadcast on NRBtv every Monday and Saturday! In addition, here is the audio podcast (the Cold-Case Christianity Weekly Podcast is located on iTunes or our RSS Feed):

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For whatever reason, Wallace never comments on why he thinks the gospels would pass the provenance criteria in the "ancient documents rule".  A recent Google search turns up nothing from Wallace on the subject, but places my blog piece, critical of him on this matter, at the top of the search hit list.

Pretty much the same is true even if one conducts a Duck Duck Go! search.

So it doesn't matter if Wallace has somehow managed to deal with this somewhere.  He apparently doesn't deal with it enough for the major search engines to pick up his discussions thereto.

I suspect that is because Wallace likes the sales gimmick of using modern American rules of evidence to govern investigation of the gospels (he has to favor that approach, that's the whole point of his "Cold Case Christianity" spiel), and he thus merely avoids discussion of any rule of evidence whose operation would  otherwise justify skeptics in dismissing the gospels as inadmissible.  I believe the laymen's term for such conduct "running away".

I explain in detail what the provenance-component of the ancient documents rule is, and why the gospels fail it with great gusto

If they do indeed fail that test, then they are "inadmissible", and no more deserve to have other rules of evidence applied to them, than is deserved by any other bit of evidence that was also rendered inadmissible.

The logical conclusion is that because the gospels do not pass muster under the rules of evidence used in American courts, the reliability of the gospels can never be sufficiently demonstrated as to intellectually or morally compel the unbeliever to acknowledge such.

However, I suspect that because Wallace is in the apologetics game to the point that he wants to make money with this crap, he has no intention of going where his own gimmickery leads, and will instead either continue avoiding the ancient documents rule or will serve up some flop-defense if his followers dog him about his silence on the matter long enough.

Wallace, if you are reading this, you have the option of breaking the silence by arguing that the ancient documents rule is so likely to result in unfair exclusion of powerful relevant evidence, that you were justified to ignore it.  

But if so, then you'll still have to follow those rules of evidence which govern admissibility of document testimony anyway.  Here are your options under FRE 901 for "authenticating" the gospels:

(1) Testimony of a Witness with Knowledge. Testimony that an item is what it is claimed to be.

(2) Nonexpert Opinion About Handwriting. A nonexpert’s opinion that handwriting is genuine, based on a familiarity with it that was not acquired for the current litigation.

(3) Comparison by an Expert Witness or the Trier of Fact. A comparison with an authenticated specimen by an expert witness or the trier of fact.

(4) Distinctive Characteristics and the Like. The appearance, contents, substance, internal patterns, or other distinctive characteristics of the item, taken together with all the circumstances.

(5) Opinion About a Voice. An opinion identifying a person’s voice — whether heard firsthand or through mechanical or electronic transmission or recording — based on hearing the voice at any time under circumstances that connect it with the alleged speaker.

(6) Evidence About a Telephone Conversation. For a telephone conversation, evidence that a call was made to the number assigned at the time to:

   (A) a particular person, if circumstances, including self-identification, show that the person answering was the one called; or

   (B) a particular business, if the call was made to a business and the call related to business reasonably transacted over the telephone.

(7) Evidence About Public Records. Evidence that:

   (A) a document was recorded or filed in a public office as authorized by law; or

   (B) a purported public record or statement is from the office where items of this kind are kept.

(8) Evidence About Ancient Documents (presumed deleted)

(9) Evidence About a Process or System. Evidence describing a process or system and showing that it produces an accurate result.

While FRE 901 says that list is not exclusive, expect a hell of an uphill battle if you try to authenticate a testimonial document in court in any manner other than the ways proposed in the rule.  And the great age of the gospels would make the Court even more unwilling to allow you to authenticate by means beyond those actually stated in the rule.

Here are your options under FRE 902, telling you which documents are "self-authenticating"

Rule 902. Evidence That Is Self-Authenticating

The following items of evidence are self-authenticating; they require no extrinsic evidence of authenticity in order to be admitted:

(1) Domestic Public Documents That Are Sealed and Signed. A document that bears:

(A) a seal purporting to be that of the United States; any state, district, commonwealth, territory, or insular possession of the United States; the former Panama Canal Zone; the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands; a political subdivision of any of these entities; or a department, agency, or officer of any entity named above; and

    (B) a signature purporting to be an execution or attestation.

(2) Domestic Public Documents That Are Not Sealed but Are Signed and Certified. A document that bears no seal if:

    (A) it bears the signature of an officer or employee of an entity named in Rule 902(1)(A); and

    (B) another public officer who has a seal and official duties within that same entity certifies under seal — or its equivalent — that the signer has the official capacity and that the signature is genuine.

(3) Foreign Public Documents. A document that purports to be signed or attested by a person who is authorized by a foreign country’s law to do so. The document must be accompanied by a final certification that certifies the genuineness of the signature and official position of the signer or attester — or of any foreign official whose certificate of genuineness relates to the signature or attestation or is in a chain of certificates of genuineness relating to the signature or attestation. The certification may be made by a secretary of a United States embassy or legation; by a consul general, vice consul, or consular agent of the United States; or by a diplomatic or consular official of the foreign country assigned or accredited to the United States. If all parties have been given a reasonable opportunity to investigate the document’s authenticity and accuracy, the court may, for good cause, either:

    (A) order that it be treated as presumptively authentic without final certification; or

    (B) allow it to be evidenced by an attested summary with or without final certification.

(4) Certified Copies of Public Records. A copy of an official record — or a copy of a document that was recorded or filed in a public office as authorized by law — if the copy is certified as correct by:

    (A) the custodian or another person authorized to make the certification; or

    (B) a certificate that complies with Rule 902(1), (2), or (3), a federal statute, or a rule prescribed by the Supreme Court.

(5) Official Publications. A book, pamphlet, or other publication purporting to be issued by a public authority.

(6) Newspapers and Periodicals. Printed material purporting to be a newspaper or periodical.

(7) Trade Inscriptions and the Like. An inscription, sign, tag, or label purporting to have been affixed in the course of business and indicating origin, ownership, or control.

(8) Acknowledged Documents. A document accompanied by a certificate of acknowledgment that is lawfully executed by a notary public or another officer who is authorized to take acknowledgments. 

(9) Commercial Paper and Related Documents. Commercial paper, a signature on it, and related documents, to the extent allowed by general commercial law.

(10) Presumptions Under a Federal Statute. A signature, document, or anything else that a federal statute declares to be presumptively or prima facie genuine or authentic.

(11) Certified Domestic Records of a Regularly Conducted Activity. The original or a copy of a domestic record that meets the requirements of Rule 803(6)(A)-(C), as shown by a certification of the custodian or another qualified person that complies with a federal statute or a rule prescribed by the Supreme Court. Before the trial or hearing, the proponent must give an adverse party reasonable written notice of the intent to offer the record — and must make the record and certification available for inspection — so that the party has a fair opportunity to challenge them.

(12) Certified Foreign Records of a Regularly Conducted Activity. In a civil case, the original or a copy of a foreign record that meets the requirements of Rule 902(11), modified as follows: the certification, rather than complying with a federal statute or Supreme Court rule, must be signed in a manner that, if falsely made, would subject the maker to a criminal penalty in the country where the certification is signed. The proponent must also meet the notice requirements of Rule 902(11).

(13) Certified Records Generated by an Electronic Process or System. A record generated by an electronic process or system that produces an accurate result, as shown by a certification of a qualified person that complies with the certification requirements of Rule 902(11) or (12). The proponent must also meet the notice requirements of Rule 902(11).

(14) Certified Data Copied from an Electronic Device, Storage Medium, or File. Data copied from an electronic device, storage medium, or file, if authenticated by a process of digital identification, as shown by a certification of a qualified person that complies with the certification requirements of Rule (902(11) or (12). The proponent also must meet the notice requirements of Rule 902 (11). 

It should be clear that, given how furiously even conservative Christian scholars disagree about the authorship, audience and provenance of the 4 canonical gospels, the earliest surviving manuscripts we have would never pass these kind of tests. 

So here's the predicament Wallace is in:

a - If you leave the ancient documents rule alone, then the provenance-element remains legitimate, and the inability of Christian scholars to know or agree on the provenance or place or origin for these manuscripts ensures they fail this test.  One has to wonder what Wallace would have to say about the gospels failing authentication under the "rules of evidence".  Would he be objective and quit the gimmicks?  Or would he simply do what conservative Christians do, and insist any evidentiary rule the gospels couldn't pass, was created by Satan?  If so, on what basis does Wallace determine which Federal Rules of Evidence were created by those interested in truth and which were created by those interested in deception? 

b - If you support the modern push to delete the ancient documents rule from Federal Rules of Evidence, then because all documents in court must still be "authenticated", you'd be forced to show that the ancient gospel manuscript of your choice passed at least one of the above-cited criteria from either FRE 901 or 902, and as already pointed out, the chain of custody for ancient gospel manuscripts his hopelessly speculative and lost, thus such documents ould never pass these standard authentication tests.

For those curious to delve further into the issue, here is a reasonably comprehensive pdf on the history and purpose of the ancient documents rule, and the arguments for and against deleting it from the current Fedral Rules of Evidence.

My advice is that Wallace give up this marketing gimmick before he embarrasses himself more than he already has.