Sunday, August 1, 2021

I have notified Lee Strobel of James Patrick Holding's slanders

 Back in 2016, Lee Strobel on Twitter gave other people links to James Patrick Holding's articles.

That was one year after my original lawsuit against him.  

So I recently sent Strobel the following email:

It is my understanding that you sometimes recommend James Patrick Holding's apologetics materials.  For example:

https://twitter.com/LeeStrobel/status/737039671688060928

Lee Strobel

@LeeStrobel

May 29, 2016

Hey @NelsonKingHD -- Here's rebuttal the atheist didn't want you to know about: http://ow.ly/6kHE300HGXO

=======================================

Apostle Paul required you to disassociate yourself from so-called "brothers" who commit certain sins, one of them being "reviling".  1st Cor. 5:11-13.

Mr. Holding has "reviled" me so much, I had to sue him for libel, and the Complaint was required to be 534 pages long merely to document it all.  You can download it for free here.

https://turchisrong.blogspot.com/2020/06/james-patrick-holding-has-committed.html

or here

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16r_O0yRBKrFNfZR7DVG9d2NknOM1LuX7/view

Since you clearly supported Holding's work in the past, and I don't know whether you've withdrawn such support since 2016, I might need to secure your under-oath testimony for purposes of trial.  I rather prefer to gain that testimony by email and thus spare everybody some expense.  The slanderous language of Holding which I documented in the Complaint, is sometimes sexually vulgar, so this is notice that you should make sure no kids are near the computer when you read this Complaint.

Since around 2016, Holding has been intentionally ambiguous about the exact legal basis upon which he can solicit and receive "tax-deductible" donations, and he says this is somehow allowed because of the fact that he works with other organizations that have 501(c)(3) status.  But he never publicly names these other organizations, leaving the donor to guess as to how exactly the money will be used, and to guess about whether the money will go to some other ministry Holding has refused to disclose.  So for all I know, he might do work for you, or you do work for him, or did in the past, etc, and perhaps Holding's tax-scheme has some relation to you or your ministry.  Your supporting of his work certainly raised an eyebrow.

Because I claim actual and presumed damages in this lawsuit against Holding, this gives me the right in the discovery-phase of the litigation to find out just how extensive Holding's slanders about me were.  Thus the extent to which you do or don't work with Holding, is relevant, discoverable and admissible.

This is a good faith effort to gain facts within your personal knowledge for purposes of currently pending litigation.  I can subpoena you, of course, but I'd rather avoid doing that.  If it be true that you have ceased recommending and/or supporting Holding, a simple comment to me by email explaining what motivated you to cease that activity will be sufficient.  

It is truly mystifying how in my experience,  most of the people who name the name of Christ and recommend Holding's apologetics, find his consistent 20 years of sinful libels and slanders against me and even against other Christians to be utterly unimportant....as if the bible would justify them keeping in their ministry a Christian teacher who lives in perpetual sin, because his great knowledge of apologetics somehow "outweighs" those actions in his life that biblically disqualify him from ministry (!?)

If there is anything I can do to minimize the degree to which you are involved in this lawsuit, please let me know.   Your emphases on spiritual maturity cause me to presume in good faith that you do not knowingly support ministries led by people who mistake spiritually evil conduct for holy conduct.

Sincerely,

Christian Doscher

barryjoneswhat@gmail.com



 

I have reported James Patrick Holding's sins to Kris Jordan of scripturesubjects.net

James Patrick Holding, the guy I'm suing for libel for about the 4th time, has at his tektonics.org advertised the link to another apologetics ministry website.  I found out who published that site and sent them the following email.  







Barry Jones barryjoneswhat@gmail.com

to office
Hello,
At his website tektonics.org James Patrick Holding has provided links to your scripturesubjects.net site.  

Tekton Website Updates
January 10, 2021
The site review continuies. Meanwhile here are some external notes:
An up and coming apologetics website; sample here and here.
Special notice: Nick Peters now has a Patreon account.
---------------------------------------from ---http://www.tektonics.org/newstuff.php

Even assuming you don't "partner" with or otherwise work with Holding in any Christian activity, the apostle Paul requires you to disassociate yourself from so-called Christian 'brothers" who commit certain sins, one of them being "reviling":

 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one.
 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
 13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. (1 Cor. 5:11-13 NAU)

The Greek word for "reviler" there is λοίδορος / loidoros.  BDAG says it means "abusive person".  

TDNT explains:

 2. Christians should try to avoid calumny (1 Tim. 5:14), but when exposed to it (cf. Mt. 5:11) they should follow Christ's example (1 Pet. 2:23; cf. Mt. 26:63; Jn. 18:23), repaying railing with blessing (1 Pet. 3:9). This is the apostolic way of 1 Cor. 4:12: “When reviled, we bless” (cf. Diog. 5.15). By this answer to calumny the reality of the new creation is manifested. [H. HANSE, IV, 293-94]

("calumny" means using misrepresentations used for the purpose of harming another's reputation. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/calumny)

DANKER says loidoros means "insolent person".

In English "reviler" means a person who subjects another to "verbal abuse"

Chrysostom thought those who committed the sins Paul listed there were dishonoring God:

Chrysostom: The Homilies of St. John Chrysostom on Timothy, Titus, and Philemon: Homilies on 1 Timothy
And, "If any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater" (1 Cor. v. 11.), such a man honors not God.

Origen says the person who reviles is not a true brother:

Origen's Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, ch. 30
as the Apostle says, "If any one that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, etc., with such an one not to eat;"14 for no one who is an idolater, or a fornicator, or covetous, is a brother; for if he, who seems to bear the name of Christ, though he is named a brother, has something of the features of these, he would not rightly be called a brother.
 
Clement of Alexandria noted that you shouldn't even eat with a reviler:

Clement of Alexandria: The Instructor, book 2, ch. 1
Thus the apostle, in his solicitude for us, discriminates in the case of entertainments, saying, that "if any one called a brother be found a fornicator, or an adulterer, or an idolater, with such an one not to eat;"5 neither in discourse or food are we to join, looking with suspicion on the pollution thence proceeding, as on the tables of the demons.

Apostle Paul says abusive speech indicates the speaker is acting according to their old unredeemed nature:

 6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
 7 and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
 8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
 9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
 10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--   (Col. 3:6-10 NAU)

Paul says filthy talk is a sign that the speaker is under the wrath of God:

 3 But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;
 4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
 5 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. (Eph. 5:3-6 NAU)

Jesus said slanders defile the person who speaks them:

 18 "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.
 19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.
 20 "These are the things which defile the man; (Matt. 15:18-20 NAU)  

The bible forbids you from associating with a person who gossips or otherwise "reveals secrets":

 19 He who goes about as a slanderer reveals secrets, Therefore do not associate with a gossip. (Prov. 20:19 NAU)

Why did I give you all that biblical precedent?

Because since 1998, James Patrick Holding has engaged consistently in filthy speech, insults, abusive talk, gossip and slander, and he has never stopped, including into the present.  I have sued Holding for libel, that lawsuit is currently pending, and his slanders of me were so extensive, my Complaint had to be 534 pages long just to document it all.

That Complaint is attached to this email as a pdf for your convenience.

Ever since 2015, Holding has posted to the internet numerous libelous comments and videos about me.  He even got hold of the video of my bus accident, photoshopped it, replaced the original audio with a fast-paced comedy song, then looped it so that the viewer would see me getting injured repeatedly about 500 times in a single minute. He posted that to YouTube.

When I complained that this video was libelous and caused me emotional distress, YouTube refused to take it down, and Holding refused to remove it.

My Complaint also documents Holding's tax scams.  When I sued him in 2015, he dissolved his Tekton Apologetics corporation.  When I sued him in 2016, he dissolved his Apologetics Afield corporation.  And yet he has, ever since, been asking for "tax-deductible" donations at his website.  For a couple of years he said he works with other 501(c)(3) organizations, but he never identifies these, and recently he changed the statement so that whether he still does or doesn't work with third-party ministries is ambiguous, and yet up until recently he said the donations would be used to support the "urgent work that we do here" (i.e., at tektonics.org... which to my knowledge Holding doesn't have tax-exempt status for, and which to my knowledge is not claimed by any legitimately tax-exempt organization to be their own ministry work product).

For years I tried to get the few Christian scholars that ever publicly endorsed Holding to engage in a Matthew 18 discussion since he was clearly committing sin toward me and was clearly unrepentant of it.  While none of them cared to do this, they have stopped publicly endorsing him.  

It gets worse.  Holding does not merely repeatedly commit the sin of slander...he has posted a long article attempting to show biblical justification for it.  And yes, in 2016 he libelously redacted a frivolous court order and appended it to this article.  Holding cannot be satisfied to stab me, he finds it necessary to twist the knife.

It gets worse:  During my 2015 lawsuit against Holding, he stated under oath that he has never deliberately intended to insult anybody.  That was his "tenth act of  perjury"  See Complaint pp. 451 ff.  My blog page explaining this, including link to free download of said Complaint, is:

It gets worse:  since 2015, Holding has repeatedly communicated to multiple people his allegedly good-faith belief that I have a very serious emotional disorder.  In other words, when Holding was posting all the libels about me between 2015 and 2021, he strongly believed that I was particularly susceptible to emotional distress.  A recent manifestation of his ill-will and hostility toward me (which the State of Florida says will make him liable for slander even if the comment he published about me was factually truthful) was his creating several websites each exclusively devoted to slandering me by means of libelously photoshopped court documents.  Just google "Christian Behrend Doscher" and/or
"Doscherleaks".  My lawsuit accuses him of misrepresenting my prior court cases.

Holding might know a lot about the bible, but in my 35 years of reading it, I cannot find any verse that says there is ever a time when it would be spiritually virtuous to use lies and gossip to subject severely emotionally disabled people to severe emotional distress.  For all of Holding's endless screeds about how "Jesus insulted the Pharisees, so we have automatica license to insult people too!", he appears to have overlooked, or else to not care about,  "thou shalt not lie".  Lies are not only direct falsehoods.  It is also lying to knowingly give somebody a false impression.

It gets worse:  Holding had to create the DoscherLeaks website several times, because every time I complained to the domain host that the site contained libelous material, they suspended the site.  The first host was a Christian company InMotion Hosting, the provider that Holding had used for nearly 20 years to also host his tektonics.org website.  After finding a Canadian host company that doesn't care about libelous content, he switched his tektonics.org site over to another and non-Christian host.

One might say those actions bespeak a mentally unstable individual who has a pathologically obsessive need to slander his critics.

You may contact Holding at jphold99@gmail.com, the address he gives the readers who might want to give him tax-deductible donations, even though he doesn't ever name the 501(c)(3) organizations that he is required to work with before that tax-exempt status can be lawful.

You may contact his lawyer Scott Livingstson at slivingston@cplspa.com.  Livingston used to be equally as boistriously mouthy and insulting toward me as Holding was, and didn't simmer down until the court entered an order admonishing him to quit using childish and stupid comments.

Perhaps the worst part is that Holding first paid a lawyer more than $20,000 to get my original lawsuit dismissed on the technicality of lack of jurisdiction, which means that he continued slandering me between 2016 and the present despite losing most of his life-savings to answer the legal action.  I have a reasonable belief that if the jury in the currently pending case awards me nothing, Holding will boast that this is because God made them see the light.  And if they award me substantial damages, Holding will merely insist the judicial system is controlled by the devil.  All of the consequences that would otherwise motivate mature adults guilty of libel to cease slandering mentally ill people, happened to Holding, yet these events did nothing but embolden him to increase his libelous harassment of me.  So because his spite and ill-will toward me are so clear, my lawsuit is asking for substantial punitive damages.

My current lawsuit has so far cost Holding what I conservatively estimate to be about $10,000, if his attorney's latest fee-disclosure is truthful.  And yet Holding refuses to remove any of the libelous postings about me.  Holding has thus spent nearly $30,000 answering my legal actions, and shows not the slightest hint that he might perhaps be in the wrong.

If in your opinion Holding's comments about me as documented in the Complaint did at some point transfer from "justified rebuke" over to "sinful slander", I would ask you to either ask him to stop advertising your ministry at his website (I'm assuming you agree with the bible, supra?) or demand that he participate in a Matthew 18 meeting.  He is, without any doubts whatsoever, that "reviler" from whom the apostle Paul says you must disassociate yourself.  

Every legitimately credentialed bible scholar that ever endorsed Holding in the past says there is ZERO biblical justification to either use insults to react to those who publicly criticize the gospel, or to use insult to repay insult.  Even Gary Habermas rebuked him for it.  Holding will have none of it.  Nope, if Jesus insulted the Pharisees, Holding thinks this grants automatic carte blanche to modern-day Christians to slanderously hiss and spit at anything they disagree with. 

The language of Holding that the Complaint documents as slanderous is also sexually filthy and sounds like it came from a demented juvenile delinquent, so make sure no children are with you when you read the Complaint.

Sincerely,

Christian Doscher
=====end of email=====================
Holding once commented on one of his YouTube videos that if he ever found out I had spoke disparagingly about him to anybody else, he would send them links to his posted comments about me.  So here's the stakes:
---- if Holding makes good on that promise in reaction to the above-quoted email, the jury will most certainly conclude that Holding's spiteful ill-will toward me is flying at truly pathological heights, thus motivating them to think only a higher amount of punitive damages has the slightest prayer of successfully deterring Holding from libeling me in the future.
---- If he doesn't make good on that promise in reaction to the above-quoted email, I will be arguing to the jury that 
a) Holding more than likely came to believe during this litigation that his posted comments about me were libelous, but 
b) because he has never removed his comments about me from the internet, it must be that Holding intentionally left up comments that he knew were libelous...thus motivating the jury to think only a higher amount of punitive damages has the slightest prayer of successfully deterring Holding from libeling me in the future. 
Once again, Holding lives in Florida, and that state has a peculiar law:  if you live there and publish comments about somebody to the internet, you could still be sued for libel even if the comment was factually and legally truthful.  Florida holds that truthful comments constitute actionable libel, if the person who posted them did so with motive to harm:

Publication of a true statement if done with ill will can be defamatory. See Fla. Const. Art. I § 4 (statement not libelous if true and published with good motive); Lewis v. Evans, 406 So.2d 489, 492 n. 2 (Fla.Dist.Ct.App.1981) ("In Florida, truth is not always an absolute defense to defamation.  In order to avoid liability, a `good motive' must also be shown."). Armstrong does not assert that the evidence was insufficient for the jury to conclude he acted with ill will.

Finch v. City of Vernon, 877 F. 2d 1497, 1504 (11th Cir. 1989)


 The parties argue over whether truth is an absolute defense to defamation under Florida law. Florida's Constitution provides, "In all criminal prosecutions and civil actions for defamation the truth may be given in evidence. If the matter charged as defamatory is true and was published with good motives, the party shall be acquitted or exonerated." Fla. Const. art. 1 § 4 (emphasis added). Florida courts, as we have previously noted, have interpreted this provision to mean that truth is not an absolute defense in a defamation action; "good motives" are also required. Finch v. City of Vernon, 877 F.2d 1497, 1504 (11th Cir. 1989) ("In Florida, truth is not always an absolute defense to defamation. In order to avoid liability, a `good motive' must also be shown." (quoting Lewis v. Evans, 406 So.2d 489, 492 n.2 (Fla. 2d DCA 1981)); see also id. ("Armstrong does not assert that the evidence was insufficient for the jury to conclude he acted with ill will."). Schiano responds pointing to an unpublished federal district court case in which the court opined that "[s]ubstantial truth is a complete defense to defamation, regardless of the motives of the defamer. It is a common tenet of First Amendment law that true statements are inactionable." Carroll v. TheStreet.com, Inc., No. 11-CV-81173, 2014 WL 5474061, at *11 (S.D. Fla. July 10, 2014). In light of Finch, the Carroll court incorrectly remarked that the "good motive" requirement "is not recognized" by the federal courts.

Friedman v. Schiano, Court of Appeals, fn. 16 (11th Cir. 2019)

 


U]nder Florida law, truth is only a defense to defamation when the truth has been coupled with good motive."

Lispig v. Ramlawi, 760 So. 2d 170, 183-84 (Fla. 3d DCA 2000) 

For the people who are thinking about donating money to Holding, you'd rightly fear that your money might go not for ministry work but to pay me damages.  Yes, I sued Holdings corporation, but Florida law is explicit that where the corporation has been found guilty of wrong-doing, the corporation's officers and agents who committed the wrongs will be personally liable to pay the damages even if the Plaintiff doesn't ask the Court to pierce the corporate veil:

Under Florida law, "officers or agents of corporations may be individually liable in tort if they commit or participate in a tort, even if their acts are within the course and scope of their employment." White v. Wal-Mart Stores, Inc., 918 So. 2d 357, 358 (Fla. 1st DCA 2005) (citations omitted). The same rule applies to limited liability companies. Cannon v. Fournier, 57 So. 3d 875, 881 (Fla. 2d DCA 2011); see also Candyman Kitchens Inc. v. Sandcrafters LLC, 2018 WL 6434058, *1 (M.D. Fla. Dec. 7, 2018) ("Under Florida law, a member or manager of a limited liability company is personally liable for torts committed within the scope of the employment."). "Liability will attach `even if no argument is advanced that the corporate form should be disregarded.'" Bradenton Motorsports Park, Inc. v. Long, 2011 WL 13244036, *1 (M.D. Fla. June 21, 2011) (quoting Fla. Speciality, Inc. v. H 2 Ology, Inc., 742 So. 2d 523, 528 (Fla. 1st DCA 1999)).

Skypoint Advisors, LLC v. 3 Amigos Productions LLC (D.C. MD Florida 2020)

The smart person doesn't donate jack shit to Holding.  The smart person demands that Holding either repent of his obvious sins of slander, or tells Holding to consign himself to be viewed by other Christian ministries to be just as corrupt as 1st century Jews thought tax-collectors were: 
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. (Matt. 18:15-17 NAU)

Download my 534-page Complaint against Holding  hereHolding's lawyer has already told him that there is no meritorious defense against my charges.

Remember, I filed my Complaint in November 2020, so that was the time when Holding first started reading it.  Due to the Court not ruling on my case and due to the Corona virus epidemic causing the Florida court litigation to slow down, this means these events caused Holding to be given what is now about 8 extra months to review the Complaint, when in fact in normal circumstances he'd be required to file an Answer to Complaint within 30 days of it being served on him. 

So Holding's followers need to listen up: If the jury awards me any damages, you will not be able to trifle that maybe Holding was somehow prevented from making rebuttal arguments as powerful as he possibly could have.  No, Holding and his lawyer have been working together trying to brainstorm how they will answer my charges on the merits, and they've been given 8 extra months beyond the normal 30 day responsive window required in the Court rules.  If then Holding loses this lawsuit, it will only be AFTER he brought to bear on it all arguments he and his lawyer of 20+ years of corporate litigation experience thought would most powerfully exonerate him of the charges.  

Which would probably lead a reasonable person to conclude that there is only one reason Holding lost:  there simply ISN'T any possible defense on the merits, and Holding was undeniably guilty as charged.

The reasonable Christian at that point would insist that Holding has been committing the sin of slander for more than 20 years, and was so spiritually blind, he seriously thought a sinful act was a holy act.  Sure, authentically born-again Christians can sin, but if you wouldn't think Holding truly possessing salvation if he committed adultery every day for the last 20 years, why would you think he could possibly be saved in spite of his sins of slander every day for the last 20 years?

YOU might think reviling is "less evil" than adultery, but NT theology says commission of any type of sin makes you guilty of breaking ALL the commandments:

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

 11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT REVILE." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do revile other people, you have become a transgressor of the law. (Jas. 2:9-11 NAU)

Inerrantist K. A. Richardson:

2:11 ...every sin constitutes a state of opposition to God. Sin is never a question of breaking a single command but of violating the integrity of the whole law. Each command is integral to the whole law.... We offend the whole through every single trespass because we are actually refusing submission to the being and person of God rather than simply the instrument itself (cf. 4:11f.).

Richardson, K. A. (2001, c1997). Vol. 36: James (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; 

The New American Commentary (Page 122). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

My reply to Taylor Brown on Adoptionism in Mark

 Christian apologist Taylor Brown posted an article (here) reviewing Dr. Michael Bird's "Jesus the Eternal Son: Answering Adoptionist Christology".  I replied as follows.  I'm cross posting it here because Taylor has set up his blog to require him to approve replies before they post.


Full text:

barryHold on, this is waiting to be approved by The Christian Revolution.

Hello,

I'd like to see your response to two skeptical contentions, namely, whether reasonableness can coexist with inaccuracy, and if so, whether accusing Mark of adoptionism can be reasonable even if wrong:

First argument:
If it be true that not all positions that are false, are also unreasonable (i.e., sometimes we make innocent mistakes), does this create at least a logical possibility that a person who derives Adoptionism out of Mark's gospel, despite being "wrong", might be "reasonable" nonetheless?

Second argument:
Since Mark doesn't mention the virgin birth, the 4 most viable possibe explanations would seem to be:

1 - Mark mentioned the virgin birth, but this part of his gospel is lost to us.
2 - Mark accepted the virgin birth as truth, but knowingly "chose to exclude" it from his gospel.
3 - Mark doesn't mention the virgin birth because he didn't know about it.
4 - Mark doesn't mention the virgin birth because he thought it was false.

Option # 1 seems unlikely since no Christian scholar argues this and nothing in patristics says Mark mentioned the VB.

Option 2 - seems unlikely since the VB would strongly support Mark's theory of Jesus' true identity. Mark choosing to exclude it is akin to an author who "chooses to exclude" Abraham Lincoln from a study of the Emancipation proclamation.

Option 3 - seems unreasonable assuming the a.d. 70 date the Christian scholarly majority assign to Mark, for then Mark must be thought to have somehow never have heard about the VB even 40 years after Jesus died. If the VB stories are historical truth, seems unreasonable that none of Mark's companions or associates during those 40 years said anything to him about the VB. And if we believe Irenaeus that Cerinthus the low-Christology Gnostic lived at the same time as the apostles, seems likely Mark would have been hearing "Jesus wasn't born of a virgin" at least a few times during that 40 year period.

Then again, Option 3 might be reasonable given we'd reasonably expect a person with a goal to prove Jesus' divine origin to find the VB a powerfully supporting evidence he wouldn't likely "chose to exclude"

Option 4 seems reasonable because even conservative scholars of Markan Priority persuasion affirm that Matthew often upgrades Mark's Christology (e.g. he changes Mark's "Jesus COULD not" to "Jesus DID not", and its probably not sheer coincidence that this change just happens to add a layer of protection to high-Christology. That is, the author of Mark is not a person who would likely ascribe to the high Christology found in the VB (I am not a Christian, and so i don't automatically assume that whatever we find in Mark is authentically from Mark, so I will not worry that my interpretation of something about Mark is wrong if it cannot be harmonized with something else found in "Mark").

Assuming that Mark thought the VB story true, can't Option 3 or 4 be "reasonable" even granting for the sake of argument that they are "wrong"?
I mean, it's not like Mark's reasons for omitting the VB are equally as clear as his association with Peter. And it's not like the reason most NT authors remain silent about the virgin birth is equally as clear as their reasons for thinking Jesus is Lord. The more obscure the "truth" that skeptics are denying, the more reasonable they can be to deny it, amen? barryjoneswhat@gmail.com


Jason Engwer doesn't appreciate the strong justification for skepticism found in John 7:5

Bart Ehrman, like thousands of other skeptics, uses Mark 3:21 and John 7:5 to argue that Jesus' virgin birth (VB) is fiction.  Jason Eng...