Tuesday, December 3, 2019

Synoptic Problem # 1: Matthew's dishonest fabrication of Christ-sayings

One of the synoptic parallels seems to naturally resist attempts by inerrantists to explain it away as a case of an author's right to exclude something:

Mark 8
Matthew 16
27 Jesus went out, along with His disciples, to the villages of Caesarea Philippi; and on the way He questioned His disciples, saying to them, 
 "Who do people say that I am?"


 28 They told Him, saying, "John the Baptist; and others say Elijah; but others, one of the prophets."
 29 And He continued by questioning them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Peter answered and said to Him,
"You are the Christ."











  






 30 And He warned them to tell no one about Him.
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, 

"Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"


 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."
 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

 16 Simon Peter answered, 
"You are the Christ,

the Son of the living God."

 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.


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The context for each is identical, so this is certainly not Jesus talking similarly on two separate occasions, this is one singular event being reported by two different authors.

What's more likely?  That Mark knew Peter uttered the longer form of the confession, but knowingly "chose to abbreviate it?  Or that Mark's version of the confession is shorter because the author didn't know about any longer version?  

What is more likely?  Mark knew that Jesus said all that extra stuff about Peter, but "chose to exclude" such profoundly important authority-establishing Christ-sayings, for his own "authorial purpose"?  or

Mark doesn't relate as much as Matthew because Mark had no reason to think Jesus said the things now confined to Matthew's version?

Such a debate involves probability judgments on how close Mark was to Peter, and whether Peter, as a leader, would likely or not likely have considered such a glowing personal endorsement from God-incarnate important enough to preserve and articulate in his preaching tours.

Dr. William Barrick wrote an article in which he tried to explain this as a case of Matthew accurately reporting, and Mark choosing for his own reasons to create a more "abbreviated" account.  See here.

I sent Dr. Barrick the following through his website contact form, which included my email address:
I read your explanation of the synoptic differences on Peter's confession at https://drbarrick.org/the-synoptic-gospels-inerrancy-what-did-peter-say/ 
Since the more expanded version in Matthew supports Peter's authority, and since the apostolic church was divided on Peter's authority (1st Cor. 1:12) can you really say it is "unreasonable" to insist that Mark would never have knowingly excluded such words from his account...and therefore...Mark is not excluding anything, Matthew is guilty of putting in Jesus' mouth words he never spoke?
 I accept Markan priority, and isn't it true that embellishments are more likely to show up in the later retellings, than in the original?
 While my theory might attack inerrancy or gospel reliability, I can't sympathize with that concern since I deny both doctrines.  I deny them because
 a) I feel certain biblical errors are real and not merely apparent; 
b) the bible doesn't teach the "only in the originals" inerrancy-caveat of the CSBI statement, so the specter of the bible extending inspiration or inerrancy to "copies" (i.e., the bible contradicting the CSBI) looms large;  and 
c) the vast majority of conservative Christian scholars accuse Matthew of "toning down" some expressions he copied from Mark...something he would hardly do if he felt Mark's gospel was "inerrant".
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I will wait to see if Dr. Barrick replies.  For now, I'm not seeing any academic or objective justification for the inerrantist to automatically assume that Mark knowingly excluded otherwise important theology merely because such is "possible".

I don't claim the inerrantist theories are impossible, so you are not "defeating" any opposing hypothesis merely because your own theory is "possible".

You are also not "defeating" any opposing hypothesis merely because you can drum up a few supporting evidences for your theory.  You'd have to extend that luxury to anybody whose counter-theory had some supporting evidences, and then you'd endure the illogical outcome that both parties "won" that debate.

What actually happened in ancient history is not determined by mere possibilities, otherwise, both sides of every historical debate would 'win', which is illogical.

What actually happened in ancient history is determined by probabilities (i.e., whose theory to explain the evidence is more probable, or, can both theories boast of equal likelihood?).

That being the case, the Christian apologist is not "defeating" my above-stated theory by simply pointing out that his own counter-theory can be "supported".  Very few positions on biblical matters are without at least some support. No fool thinks all scholars win every biblical debate.

You need to show that your inerrantist-theory is more likely to be true than my skeptical theory that says Matthew invented the longer version.

While I expect apologists to be honest and engage with me in argument, I also expect James Patrick Holding to deceive his followers into thinking a 2 minute cartoon video that feeds his narcissistic lust will conclusively dispose of this allegation of error in the bible.  Yes, that is his idea of "rebuttal".
 "You are wrong, here's the reasons, you could not possibly have any significant rejoinder, so, discussion closed to everybody except those whose comments I choose not to delete."
Doesn't your heart just race with fear at the very thought of disagreeing with such a fearless warrior?  I can barely type, I'm shaking so bad.  LOL

Always remember:  it wouldn't even matter if you the skeptic conceded the miracle of Jesus' resurrection for the sake of argument:  the god of the Christians does not think a person's working a genuinely supernatural miracle automatically justifies their theology, a worker of real miracles can STILL be condemned by God for promoting false theology:
 1 "If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,'
 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
 4 "You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.
 5 "But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.
 (Deut. 13:1-5 NAU)
So, obviously, the bible-god disagrees with modern loud-mouth Christian apologists like Frank Turek who insist that if Jesus truly rose from the dead, this miracle automatically proves he is the true Son of God.

6 comments:

  1. I'm curious as to why Mark just didn't cover every theological statement necessary. It's as though God used Mark as the rough draft. Why Mark wouldn't include something so important is unusual if he was divinely inspired. What if Mark was the only gospel many people owned? It would seem to me that either Mark's gospel is sufficient or God doesn't care how much of your theology is proper and necessary for salvation.

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    Replies
    1. Good points, especially the argument about those who were limited to Mark's gospel. Fundies will say such people God would never hold accountable to believe in the virgin birth, but that's not the issue. The issue is exactly what you said: how likely is it that god would want some early Christians to remain ignorant of Jesus' virgin birth?

      Calvinists will answer easily, since they think every raindrop was infallibly predestined to land where it does. But non-Calvinist Christians, being unable to use predestination to fix their problems, will be forced to resort to sheer speculation, which skeptics can, if they so choose, be reasonable to completely ignore.

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  2. is it possible to use the negative portrayal of the disciples in mark as an argument against john john 19:25-27?

    1. mark says that the disciples are cowards
    2. when they follow, the heat is on, they shit themselves .
    3.mark has jesus say ,
    14 The sower soweth the word.

    15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; and when they have heard, straightway cometh Satan, and taketh away the word which hath been sown in them.

    16 And these in like manner are they that are sown upon the rocky [places], who, when they have heard the word, straightway receive it with joy;

    17 and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway they stumble.


    4. here is why i think mark should have mentioned the story about the beloved disciple. mark has a theme about faith trumping fear. if you have faith, you can ask mountains to move. if you have faith, you will willingly go to your death. mark tells his readers "they ALL fled and peter lied and denied jesus"


    the apologetic reconciliation bullshit makes no sense to me. they are wrecking marks negative portrayal of the disciples.

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  3. Apologists are more and more leaning toward whether we can deduce something about the gospel author's intentions from their "themes", so you are wise to zero in on Mark's theme of disciple-stupidity, and draw inferences therefrom.

    Not sure if I understand you aright, but it seems you are asking whether the stupidity and cowardice of the disciples in Mark is inconsistent with John's report that at least one of his disciples courageously stood there at the cross. I never thought of that before. If indeed we are to suppose Mark's portrait of cowardly idiotic disciples is "accurate", then yes, John's portraying one of them as willing to stand near the Cross (where he knows the crowds are much more likely to identify him as one of Jesus' promoters and possibly crucify him too), may be reasonably deemed a contradiction to Mark's portrait of the disciples.

    Contrary to fundamentalist assumptions, we don't need absolute language before we can reasonably find a contradiction. Juries are constantly finding contradictions in the non-absolute language of various witnesses in a criminal case. If inerrantists had their way, all such is forbidden, because the non-absolute nature of the language always allows for possible harmonization scenarios. But it is completely normal to suspect contradiction in narratives that have less than absolute wording.

    Of course, fundies can trifle that the disciples were not stupid cowards 24 hours per day in Mark, but ironically it is the very ambiguity of the biblical data giving rise to their "how-it-could-have-been" speculations, that also equally justify the skeptical theories.

    I don't say inerrantists are unreasonable, I simply say my disagreement with them is reasonable. Since the thesaurus does not list accuracy as a synonym for reasonableness, I deduce that reasonableness can possibly exist even where accuracy does not. Yet fundamentalists constantly pretend that the only way somebody's view of the bible can be reasonable, is if it is "accurate".

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  4. "fundies can trifle that the disciples were not stupid cowards 24 hours per day in Mark"

    Mark 14:27-31 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
    27 And Jesus said to them, “You will all become deserters; for it is written,

    ‘I will strike the shepherd,
    and the sheep will be scattered.’

    28 But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.” 29 Peter said to him, “Even though all become deserters, I will not.” 30 Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, this day, this very night, before the cock crows twice, you will deny me three times.” 31 But he said vehemently, “Even though I must die with you, I will not deny you.” And all of them said the same.


    these guys said that they are ready to die, but not deny.
    jesus said, "you will all desert..."
    the most damning evidence is that neither was ready to die, they all shit themselves and ran away, peter gets it the worst cause he lied and denied. even in the prophecy, there is no prediction of transition.

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    Replies
    1. you have a sharp eye, I was giving the disciples more credit than they deserved, apparently. Good points.

      I again come back to asking why Christians think atheists are intellectually compelled to believe the disciples more than likely saw true miracles, when the fact that the disciples buckled when trouble arose equally plausibly suggests they only felt they did not personally believe in any of the "miracles" Jesus was allegedly "doing.

      Apologists are always pushing how viewing the resurrected Christ "amazingly transformed" the disciples, but this delay brings Jesus' pre-crucifixion miracles into question: I'm not seeing much difference between some of the miracles Jesus allegedly did before his crucifixion, and his own alleged resurrection:

      How amazing would it be to see the dead and decomposing Lazarus rise from the dead (John 11), or for the disciples themselves to raise the dead (Matthew 10:8)?

      How amazing must it have been to watch Jesus take an amount of food clearly insufficient for 5,000 people, and "multiply" it so much that 5,000 people were fed and the leftovers filled 12 baskets (Luke 9:13-17)? What did a loaf of bread look like while Jesus was causing it to produce an identical twin of equal volume?

      How amazing must it have been to watch the fig tree "presently" wither away right exactly when Jesus cursed it (Matthew 21:19), what did the man's withered hand look like while it was in the process of being healed (Matthew 12:13)?

      If the disciples were really this thickheaded, that can used against them if they later show any zeal to defend the faith to the death.

      If the disciples were not this thickheaded, then the gospels are clearly unreliable for making the disciples out to be dumber than they actually were.

      The third option, that the disciples actually saw genuinely supernatural miracles, yet somehow never "got it" for the longest time, seems to evoke the equal stupidity of the Israelites, qho first experienced the parting of the Red Sea so that the waters were like a wall on their right and left (Exodus 14:22) , then soon afterward desiring to go back to Egypt and bondage (Exodus 16:3).

      Delete

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