Showing posts with label bible inerrancy. Show all posts
Showing posts with label bible inerrancy. Show all posts

Thursday, November 21, 2024

My reply to Bellator Christi's "Three Dangerous Forms of Modern Idolatry"

I received this in my email, but the page it was hosted on appears to have been removed 

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Three Dangerous Forms of Modern Idolatry

By Tony Williams on November 20, 2024

By: Brian G. Chilton, M.Div., Ph.D. | November 24, 2024

Idolatry is a dangerous and sinful problem for individuals.

Then skeptics might possibly be reasonable to delay obeying the evangelists command to repent and believe the gospel, until they can be reasonably sure the evangelist hasn't created his own idols.  Otherwise, you would be telling us to base decisions about our eternity upon the word of a possible idolater.  But if the evangelist's possible idolatry cannot be anything sufficient to justify delaying to accept his gospel theology, then such idolatry probably isn't sufficiently important in the context of the church to justify your article on it.

The act of idolatry places emphasis on a person, place, thing, or concept on the same or higher level than God.

So when Christians find the words of anybody in the NT outside of Jesus to be at the level of God (i.e, God-inspired speech or writing), they are idolizing that author.  Even if you could show that Paul's theology was "correct", you could never show that his epistles were inspired by God.  And yet all of today's Christians in your conservative of fundamentalist group cannot even hardly imagine any of Paul's NT writings lacking divine inspiration. 

In many ways, as I have often said, idolatry is adultery against God. Just as adultery is the act of a spouse cheating on his or her marital partner, likewise, idolatry essentially cheats on God by placing something greater than Him.

I learned from the Calvinists that if anybody cheats on God, its because God wanted them to.  When you say my spiritually dead condition doesn't prevent me from recognizing heresy, the Calvinists will say spiritual death as taught in the NT is not merely metaphorical, but literal.   At that point I can justify delaying to further consider what you have to say until the Calvinists and Arminians obey 1st Cor. 1:10 and stop having divisions, i.e., the sort of divisions that cause Christians to claim to follow different Christian teachers who teach opposite to each other.

The Word of God thoroughly warns against the sin of idolatry throughout its illustrious pages. The sin of idolatry made it into the Ten Commandments. When idolatry occurs, a person is consumed with whatever becomes the object of worship. And seeing that God is the source of goodness and love, anything other than God will wind up being a grave disappointment.

That fails to explain why many Christians didn't find it a disappointment to leave the faith.  You will say they only left a black and white fundie and false form of Christianity, but if the cosmos ever declared your imperfect theories to be true, I didn't get the memo.  

snip

 

 Huxley viewed these three modern idolatries as “a much more insidious and pernicious form of idolatry”[1] than many others. The three forms of idolatry that Huxley warns about are technological idolatry, political idolatry, and moral idolatry.

snip

With modernity, it is often assumed that technology will save humanity in various areas. For sure, technological advances have extended life expectancy by offering better healthcare. Nonetheless, idolatry comes when people place more value on their devices than God. The psalmist declares, “Some take pride in chariots, and others in horses, but we take pride in the name of the Lord our God. They collapse and fall, but we rise and stand firm” (Ps. 20:7–8, CSB).

But since you cannot make a case that "spiritual" concerns are more important than "earthly" concerns, there is no unreasonableness in a person merely because their lives are completely earth-centered and exhibit not the slightest concern about the afterworld. 

POLITICAL IDOLATRY

snip

In the same way, we must ask ourselves if we have reached a point where we trust in our organizations, alliances, and parties more than God. That is not to say that we should not stand for what’s right. However, Hezekiah and his confrontation with the prophet Isaiah should remind us that ultimately our trust and reliance should be in God rather than political entities.

I find that to be completely useless banter:  Of course all members of the American Center for Law & Justice or the Moral Majority will say they are trusting in "god", but it would be easy enough to show that they are trusting no less in their political party too.  The fact that trusting god is not sufficient to get anything done is proven by the fact that trusting god can be sufficiently accomplished solely mentally...and yet any fool recognizes that Republicans can look forward to losing in politics if they don't couple their trust in "god" with their purely earth-centered efforts in American politics.  Christianity is very stupid for fostering the type of irrationality that credits business success to god, when the indisputable empirical facts sufficiently explain that success.  If you purchase a candy bar at a store, you are a fool if you give god credit for causing that business transaction to succeed.  Just like if you run an apologetics ministry on the internet and you gather a few fools who regularly donate to your cause, there's no more reason to pretend "god" caused them to donate than there is for thinking the tooth-fairy caused them to donate.  If you have freewill, this logically precludes giving god full credit for your successes.  God did not make the decision to start the business. YOU did.  God's back does not hurt if you dig ditches to earn a living.  YOUR back hurts.  Giving God credit for all your successes foolish because all Christians do it, and yet you'd be quick to insist that in many cases, it wasn't god who caused some ministry to gain popularity.  Any fool can see what the proximate, immediate and ultimate causes for Christian success are in this world.  An invisible entity working behind the scenes in mysterious ways in another dimension is NOT it.

MORAL IDOLATRY

Lastly, Huxley warns against moral idolatry. Moral idolatry can involve one’s reliance on one’s ethical ideals and interpretations of morality[7] rather than God and transcendent ethics. This can include a person’s reliance on their own ethical standards to give them hope, happiness, security, and significance.[8]

There is nothing to argue against here because even assuming the bible is the inerrant word of God, there's plenty of evidence that God does not give infallible moral guidance to any Christian who has lived in the last 1900 years.  God never clearly answers for any Christian the question of whether they should get married, have kids, buy a gun, which exact church to attend, where exactly their theological beliefs could use some correction or sharpening, whether they should vote for a secular leader, spend their savings on questionable things like tithing, or which strangers to help, whether to speak against or remain quiet about a church leader that appears to be unqualified for office, etc, etc.  At the end of the day, the faith of the Christian who makes decisions about these matters, is absolutely blind.  You may as well tell yourself that after paying to Abraham Lincoln about marriage and noticing a few coincidences over the next two weeks, you have faith that Lincoln wants you to marry a certain someone.  It doesn't matter if such thinking would edify you, that doesn't mean it must double as a reasonable proof that Lincoln was truly guiding you. Extreme Pentecostals think God wants them to act like unhinged lunatics, and African Bushman think the local witch doctor's "curse" is somehow "real".  

It could be argued that Job’s friends were guilty of moral idolatry since they trusted in their own interpretations rather than God. This could be one of the reasons why God did not accept their responses to Job.

But today there is no such thing as a Christian trusting in "god".  All they can do is trust that their own interpretations of biblical doctrine are what the human biblical authors intended. 

Additionally, it could be said that many of the Pharisees of Jesus’ day were guilty of moral idolatry, as well. They trusted in their own interpretations of God’s Law rather than seeking the truth of God’s Word and trusting in the God Who gave the Law.

That is nothing but empty rhetoric, and they would probably have responded that they properly trust in God and show it by constantly concerning themselves with the scriptures and with how the scriptures are to applied to Jews when occupation by Romans forbade them from living out the Mosaic theocracy to its full intent.  When today's Christians act upon their interpretation and application of biblical words, they do nothing different than the Pharisees, who would easily argue that they never add anything to the scripture, they merely show what scripture "requires". 

Likewise, many in today’s church are militantly divided into numerous denominations and focus on various styles of worship, to the point that other variants are seen as unChristlike or even heretical. At some point, we must ask ourselves if such a devotion to denominationalism may, in some part, make us guilty of moral idolatry.

And this gives the skeptic another excuse:  shouldn't he worry about the possibility that the evangelist is guilty of moral idolatry?  The only reason you don't want to say "yes" is because if you said "yes", then obviously the skeptic cannot be rationally expected to reach reasonable certainty on the evangelist's or apologist's moral status before God in two seconds.  If then the skeptic does what is right and investigates such a question, well, that's gonna take a few days at least, likely longer if the "apologist" is some anonymous fool on the internet.  Since he cannot be rational to seriously consider the theology of a possible moral idolater until he can evaluate the evidence for and against, it is not rational to expect him to "accept Jesus" during that period of investigation.  Although this is consistent with Frank Turek's infamous statement that "Maybe God doesn't want an unbeliever to get saved right now", most fundamentalists would bristle at this and insist the skeptic never has an excuse to delay getting saved.  They are wrong:   the stupid person is not the unbeliever who insists on delaying a decision until they can evaluate the relevant evidence for and against any Christians qualification to preach the gospel.  The stupid person is the unbeliever who thinks the generalized agreements of the various conflicting denominations about Jesus and the gospel make the basic truth sufficiently clear to justify god in holding the unbeliever accountable to immediately "get saved".  That is stupid because even if we confine the analysis to just the Trinitarian camp, Trinitarians disagree with each other about "essential" doctrine.  For example, John MacArthur did not cause a storm of controversy within the Trinitarian camp because most of them thought Lordship Salvation was a non-essential.  He created that storm because he thought Lordship Salvation was the only way to get saved, and his Trinitarian opponents made it an essential issue by accusing him of teaching the false gospel of legalism.  Their agreements with each other that Jesus was God and bodily risen from the dead, do not mean that sincere confession of Jesus' deity and his bodily resurrection are all that is necessary to "get saved".  MacArthur's Trinitarian opponents have no problems with these essentials...yet they continually warn the church and unbelievers away from what they perceive to be a legalistic gospel that is incapable of saving anybody.

snip

 May we all place our full devotion and trust in the God of creation. Because it is only in Him that we ultimately find our meaning, purpose, and value.

A very useless pep talk since every Christian in creation guilty of any of these forms of idolatry could easily argue that by prioritizing politics or morality, they are in fact responding to these matters as God wants them to.

 


Saturday, October 28, 2023

My response to Bellator Christi on bible inerrancy

 See 


https://bellatorchristi.com/2023/10/26/s7e8-inerrancy-does-it-matter/


In case my post gets deleted, here's a screenshot proving the post was made, followed by the actual text:



Text:

What I offer here is not proof that you are unreasonable, but that Christians who reject bible inerrancy are reasonable.

First, I have't studied your own views enough to detect what you think about this, but I will assume that you think inerrancy arises either naturally or logically, or both, from divine inspiration, on the grounds that "god cannot lie" (i.e., Geisler-flavored inerrantism, i,e., "The bible is God's word, God cannot err, therefore the bible cannot err".). So your problem is in explaining why you think the mere fact that the author is "divinely inspired" somehow necessitates that whatever he wrote during such inspiration, was inerrant. You cannot deny that the author of Revelation was divinely inspired, and yet it was WHILE he was divinely inspired that he committed the capital offense of idolatry twice, with the angel rebuking it as a sin that is to be avoided (19:10, 22:8). So if somebody wanted to stay open to the possibility that other NT authors engaged in acts of sin/imperfection while they were in the process of writing the text of their NT books, you could not rationally insist that this is completely out of the question.

Second, if you deny Geisler's version of inerrancy, then you have a version of inerrancy that is far less clearly "biblical", which might require that you stop characterizing as unreasonable those Christians who think inerrancy is modern day Phariseeism.

Third, you cannot theologically separate inerrancy from divine inspiration. You would never say that maybe Romans could be inerrant while also lacking divine inspiration. Since your position views divine inspiration as necessary to biblical inerrancy:

1 - What bible verse or verses most strongly support(s) the divine inspiration of the NT? To make things easy, feel free to provide your proofs in the same order as the order of the NT canon: Proof that Matthew is divinely inspired, proof that Mark is divinely inspired, etc. The less clear the divine inspiration of NT books is, the less unreasonable will be those who reject NT inerrancy. And yet something tells me that when you meet another Trinitarian Christian who denies biblical inerrancy, you think they are not presently experiencing all of the spiritual growth potential that god has made possible for them to presently experience.

2 - Is your inerrancy-favoring interpretation of those NT verses so clear and compelling that those who disagree with you on the point must be unreasonable to so disagree? Or could disagreement with you on the point possibly be reasonable?

3 - Most conservative and fundamentalist churches have a statement of doctrines they consider "essential to salvation", very few of them express or imply that belief in the inerrancy of the NT is essential to salvation. That is an awful lot of spiritually alive people who are failing to notice how crucial the inerrancy of the NT is, reasonably suggesting their view does not arise from ignorance, but from the non-existence of the doctrine in the first place. This renders the outsider reasonable to conclude that rejection of NT inerrancy iis not anymore unreasonable than is rejection of Preterism.

4 - Could a Christian do absolutely everything which Jesus in the 4 canonical gospels required of them, while sincerely believing the whole time that the doctrine of NT inerrancy is false? I say yes, their trust that the 4 gospels correctly convey Jesus' commands, does not demand they assent to gospel-inerrancy, only that they assent to the historical reliability of the gospels. As as I'm sure you are aware, most Christian apologists insist that belief in bible inerrancy is by no means necessary before a person can be reasonable to say Jesus' resurrection is the one theory that best explains the NT evidence..

I'm not saying inerrantists are unreasonable. I'm merely saying those who reject NT inerrancy can be reasonable to do so. Contrary to popular belief, reasonableness for one group does not dictate the limits of reasonableness for another group. And yet the humble attitude that says your opponent could possibly be equally as reasonable as you, is not only nowhere allowed in NT theology, but is explicitly condemned by Paul who seems to think that disagreement with him automatically justifies anathematizing the opponent (Gal. 1:6-9), or insisting that they "know nothing", and worse (1st Tim. 6:3, Titus 3:9-11). That is, if you refuse to become an intolerant bigot in your theological views, you are willfully disobeying apostle Paul's demand that you imitate him (1st Cor. 11:1).

If spiritually alive people cannot even agree on such spiritual things, you can hardly expect spiritually dead people, like me, to manifest more accurate discernment of such spiritual things.

Hope that helps.

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Monday, July 19, 2021

My reply to R.L. Solberg on the problems of bible "inerrancy"

This is my reply to an article by apologist R.L. Solberg entitled

Can the Bible be our Authority and not be Inerrant?

Link to original article.

Look, I get it. There are a growing number of Christians who love Jesus and do not want to give Him up, but they are also uncomfortable with some of the teachings of what we might call “mainstream Christianity.”

And if you refuse to say they lack salvation, then skeptics can demand that you explain why it is that some Holy Spirit filled people affirm inerrancy, while other Holy Spirit filled people deny inerrancy.  Does the Holy Spirit "try" to convince ignorant Christians and sometimes fail?  Does the Holy Spirit know exactly what needs to be done to successfully convince an ignorant Christian of the errors of her way?  If so, then the Holy Spirit's failure to put forth such divine effort makes it God's fault if the Christian, despite sincerity toward God, continues to persist in doctrinal error.

Especially those teachings that challenge the big issues we have to wrestle with today. Things like social justice, gender quality, women’s issues, and sexual issues like LGBTQ+.

My advice is to quit trying to change things, because making even one change social policy does little more than create 4 additional problems that didn't exist before.  Keep up that shit, and you wind up with a society that is so complex that it will collapse.  America would be far better off today had it never succumbed to innovation.  Suffrage and Civil Rights might have seemed good from a short-term perspective, but in the long-term perspective, these changes emboldened the people to cry out for further and further innovation, and presto, here we are today, with some states legalizing hard drugs, and the U.S. Supreme Court having legalized gay marriage.  The Christians are correct:  America's problems all stem from its citizens' inability to be content with what they currently have.  

There’s a tension there, especially for those who care deeply about these issues and want to be right with God. I feel the tension, too. And it raises a legitimate question: How do we balance our faith and our love of Jesus with these other important issues?

Good question, if Jesus was the YHWH of the OT, he probably still wanted to kill gays even after the incarnation.  Leviticus 20:13.  Consistency would demand no less.  Of course, I don't trifle about Jesus "fulfilling" the OT laws because the fact that Protestants and Catholics disagree on the theological significance of his death despite myriad scholarly tomes from each camp trying to "explain" it, I find the death of Jesus to constitute nothing more than the death of a mammal.  Thus there is no intellectual obligation on me to consider that maybe Jesus didn't advocate the brutality of the OT morality because he "fulfilled" those laws.  Not even close.

One approach currently growing in popularity is to retain the Bible as an authority but reject the belief that it is inerrant.

A more refined version of that position would be to avoid inerrancy because the bible simply doesn't teach it.  Never having taught it, there is no bible inerrancy doctrine to reject in the first place.  Mainline Inerrancy says "only in the originals", the bible never specifies any such qualification, and only stupid people would pretend that God wants them to wrap their lives around a doctrine that they constructed partially from non-biblical "truths".  If any conception of inerrancy says something that cannot be found in the bible, then to that extend that doctrine is not "biblical".

This gives us some wiggle room to hold on to both Jesus and our social positions. Rejecting the inerrancy of the Bible can help to resolve a number of thorny moral issues. We can, for example, conclude that the teachings found in Scripture against homosexual behavior are outdated, ancient notions that are no longer appropriate. (See my LGBTQ+ sensitivity statement.)

If you don't advocate killing homosexuals, then you have concluded that at least one law in scripture against homosexual behavior is an outdated ancient notion that is no longer appropriate.

However, rejecting the inerrancy of Scripture also introduces some very tricky complications. At first glance, rejecting inerrancy seems to allow us to cut off those old, dead branches from Christian teaching that are no longer bearing fruit. But in reality, we end up sawing through the very branch that holds up our faith. Let me explain what I mean.
What is Biblical Inerrancy?
Biblical Inerrancy is simply the teaching that the Bible is without fault or error in everything that it teaches or affirms.

Only in the originals. But correctly qualifying it that way makes the doctrine unbiblical.  None of the classic biblical texts on "inerrancy" express or imply "only in the originals".  They were talking about the state of the copies that were available to the author.  So "only in the originals" might be a qualification that solves a lot of problems for the trifling inerrantist, but it's not "biblical".  

And since the biblical authors who mentioned scriptural inspiration were talking about the copies currently in their possession (2nd  Tim. 3:16, see v. 15), the bible will require any doctrine of inerrancy to ascribe inerrancy to at least some types of copies in the unqualified way that Paul did in that verse.  Welcome to hell.

This is, by nature, a binary issue. The Bible is either inerrant or it is not.

If the bible were a composite whole, that is valid.  But the bible is a collection of different works from different authors over a time span of 1500 years.  There is nothing about mistakes in Genesis that would require mistakes in Matthew.   There is nothing about the inerrancy of Deuteronomy that would require Romans to be inerrant.  There is nothing about mistakes of Southern Baptists that requires mistake among the Assemblies of God.  Dedication to the "canon" of the bible is a shockingly ignorant thing, because it has more to do with accepting what was produced by the traditions of men and less to do with following what Jesus said.  If Jesus did not require the church to create any canon, then Jesus cannot have thought creating a canon was very important to the spiritual health of his church.  So to the extent the church makes any canon fundamental to its purpose, they are doing the Pharisee-thing and adding to the word of the Lord.

It cannot be “partially inerrant,” since that would be the same thing as being errant.

That doesn't make sense.  There is nothing wrong in saying one document contains a mixture of truth and error.  The evidence in favor of the divine origin of the bible is not sufficiently weighty to justify insisting the bible should be viewed as either entirely inerrant or untrustworthy. Like any other document, there is nothing unreasonable in saying the bible also contains mixtures of truth and error.

The 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy captures the mainstream Christian position on this issue. For our purposes, here’s a simple definition of the two possible positions:

The Bible is Inerrant 

The fact that so many Christians believe this but differ on what they mean, would justify skeptics to label the matter a confusing and pointless waste of time, if they chose to avoid spending time on it.

The Bible is not Inerrant 

Jesus never talked about any NT canon, so Christians are not under any obligation to even care whether any NT book outside of their personal favorite gospel is inerrant.  If Paul the Pharisee wanted others to view his NT writings as inerrant scripture, then apparently upon converting to Christianity he didn't lose all of his Phariseeic tendencies to equate traditions of men with god's word. 

The Bible was written by men but superintended by the Holy Spirit and is, therefore, without error or fault in all that it teaches or affirms.

No, because God can guide you today, without rendering you perfect in the process.  Hence, there is no logically necessary reason to insist that if God inspired the bible, it must therefore be considered inerrant.  You'll have to plead and prove something more about the bible than merely god's "inspiring" it.

The Bible is a collection of writings from good but fallible men. Therefore, some of the things it teaches or affirms may be wrong.

No, you think Moses was the author of the Pentateuch.  You have read plenty of stories from pagans living around 1300 b.c. who slaughtered children in times of war, and you think they are all batshit crazy, not "good".  But as soon as you read that Moses specifically commanded his people to kill children and babies (Numbers 31:17), then suddenly, you insist that Moses is "good" in a very special way.  LOL.

That's the most objective position since the evidence in favor of the bible's divine inspiration is so weak that the bible does not deserve to be viewed as an exception to the rule.

Let’s take a brief look at four aspects of this issue.
“God is inerrant but the Bible is not.”
The progressive Christians that I have read or spoken with all subscribe to the idea that God is inerrant, but the Bible is not. That seems reasonable on the surface. But it opens up the proverbial can of worms.

God opened a proverbial can of worms when he got bored of his perfect pre-creation state and decided to create creatures that he knew would cause him to become intensely wrathful.   That's like a man who knows he is easily pissed off at kids, deciding to have kids.  If the kids make him so angry that he kills them, who's fault is that?  The kids for misbehaving, or Dad's fault for choosing to create the condition under which he knew his wrath would become aroused to the point of killing?

If God is without error, was it His intention to give us a set of writings that He knows contains errors?

The bible doesn't answer that, so maybe Paul would have considered this one of those "foolish questions" he wants Christians to avoid? 

Was God unable to use human authors to successfully communicate His truths inerrantly?

Depends on whether you ask a Calvinist or an Arminian, who differ on whether man's "freewill" is capable of thwarting God's purposes. 

Or maybe the Bible was an entirely human idea that God did not intend we should have created?

Since you couldn't prove the divine origin of the biblical canon to save your life anyway, this seems a reasonable position. 

If that’s the case, what can we as Christians know about God apart from Scripture?

Well the fact that God doesn't want you to know anything about him except what you read in the bible, and the fact that God doesn't wish for Christians to agree on what God is like, might suggest that your religion cannot provide a reasonably certain answer to your question.

In Romans 1, Paul teaches that we can know some things about God from His creation.

Paul was a heretic and in Romans 1 and elsewhere he took the OT out of context.  In Romans 3 he condemns the entire human race on the authority of various OT texts that in their original context were not talking about the entire human race.  In the real world that's called "ripping the OT out of context".   But in Fantasyland, where nothing is ever yucky or wrong, we call it "God allowed Paul to see a deeper meaning than what the OT authors themselves intended".  LOL, is the evidence for God's inspiring Paul to write Romans so great that the only reasonable choice for the reader is to grant Paul an exception to the rule of context whenever it "looks like" he is taking the OT out of context? No.  you will do that because of your present trust in Paul's divine inspiration, but the evidence supporting his divine inspiration is so weak that it cannot possibly place the non-Christian reader under any intellectual obligation to worry about "double-fulfillment" or "sensus plenior"

This is what theologians call general revelation. From the “book of nature” alone we can learn that God is powerful, creative, intelligent, majestic, and so on.

The book of nature also has baboons eating baby gazelles alive.  So the book of nature also testifies that this god is a sadistic lunatic even if it also testifies that he is "smart", just like Nazi scientists were smart, but barbaric and cruel nonetheless.  You will say "I'm a young-earth creationist, animals didn't start brutalizing each other until Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit."  But many other Christians are "old earth creationists" who say God intended carnivores to inflict horrific misery on each other for millions of years before Adam and Eve existed.   If Nature exhibits intelligent design, you cannot avoid the question of what type of morality the "creator" of that design harbors.  If I create a robot that kills humans in complete disregard of their own feelings, individual lives and rights, what does that tell you about my morality?  That my ways are mysterious, or that I'm barbaric?  And yet because the bible uses so much exaggeration, you cannot just read the bible like yesterday's newspaper and pretend that God's "goodness" must prevail over his "works".  God's "word" always calls himself good and righteous.  But if nature exhibits his "works", well, actions speak louder than words.

But does the “book of nature” reveal to us a God who is loving and merciful?

No.  The "book of nature" consists of various different life forms, some of whom treat each other fairly, others of whom treat each other like shit.  The "book of nature" does not give you a consistent position, except perhaps n the sense of a super smart child who creates random robots just to see how they will interact with each other.

If we only study nature, we might come to the opposite conclusion. The world can be a violent and unfair and unforgiving place. Creatures violently killing other creatures for food or fun. Indeed, without the Bible how would we arrive at the idea that God is inerrant?

But some Christians who revere the bible are open-theists, who say God is imperfect and learns from his mistakes.

Wouldn’t we see the violence and injustice and suffering and evil in the world and conclude that God probably got a few things wrong?

No, the god of Deut. 28:15-63 fits perfectly a world full of sadistic lunacy.  See esp. v. 63, where God promises he will "rejoice" to inflict these horrific miseries on disobedient Hebrews no less than he rejoices to provide abundance to obedient Hebrews.  If you try to avoid that carnage by saying ancient Semitic authors often exaggerated to make a dramatic point, then we have to wonder how many other statements about God in the bible, also written by ancient Semitic people, are mere exaggeration, and if so, what damage to existing doctrine would be caused if you started trying to figure out which parts of doctrinal texts were exaggerations and which parts were true.  Does Psalm 90:2 teach that God is eternal?  Or is this merely an ancient Semitic exaggerated way of saying God is really old?  Does John 1:1 teach that Jesus is God?  Or is this just an ancient Semitic exaggerated way of saying Jesus is the greatest of all creatures?

Aside from God appearing and speaking to us directly, the Bible is our only source of direct knowledge about God — including His perfection and goodness.

and God's unwillingness to do everything he can to convince you that you are headed for disaster, also tells you something about God - his love for you is limited.  

It offers what theologians call special revelation. Scripture is God’s witness to Himself. And if that witness is full of errors, what do we really know? Can we even conclude that God is inerrant?

If your human spiritual leaders are imperfect, what do you really know?  Can you ever get the right interpretation of the bible if you are constantly at the mercy of other imperfect sinners who provide you imperfect English translations and imperfect commentaries?

Exactly how stupid is it to give an "inerrant" message to a person without also providing them with the infallible interpretive key?  "Well maybe god wants us to grope for  the "correct" interpretationi" for a few years before he will allow us to detect it!"

Blame it on my genetic predispositions, or my environmental conditioning, or both, but I don't waste my time serving fuckhead leaders who demand that I align with "truth", but who then intentionally hide the truth from me.

Inerrant bible without infallible interpretive key is just batshit crazy, at least in the case of modern Americans who cannot benefit from direct real-time apostolic oral tradition.

And if God allowed first century people to have the infallible interpretive key (i.e., Jesus and the apostles), why doesn't God allow modern America to recover the correct meaning of scripture with equal ease?  Does God hate modern America more than he hated 1st century Palestine?  

Did you ever wonder about those "corporate responsibility" texts in the bible?  Could it be that if God dislikes a great leader in America, God will not merely punish the individual leader, he will do what he did in the bible, and punish the entire nation?  In other words, because most leaders in America are corrupt, "god" punishes the entire American nation (i.e., including Christians)?  Maybe that might explain why "god" doesn't answer even sincere prayers of American citizens?  Maybe God is the type of being who will punish American churches and their members because they happen to be settled in a country that is run by corrupt politicians?

How is that different from God allowing innocent children to be swept up in disasters and crimes that they obviously aren't personally responsible for?  Maybe your god won't start healing Christianity until the American nation stops being so corrupt....because for whatever reason, your "god" coincidentally just happens to believe in the same doctrine of corporate responsibility that most ancient people believed in?

The Problem of Objectivity

A progressive Christian writer named Derek Vreeland brings up a compelling point against inerrancy. In a 2019 article, he claims that “Underneath the arguments for biblical inerrancy is the desire for pure objectivity.” He goes on to point out that there is really no such thing as pure objectivity. Any interpretation of the Bible is going to be subjective based on who is doing the interpreting. To underscore his point, he asks some tough questions:
Who determines the difference between what the Bible is recording and what it is affirming?
Who determines the criteria by which we judge the correctness of our interpretation?
Who determines the meaning of each biblical text?
Vreeland summarizes the problem of objectivity by pointing out the inherent difficulties it presents:
Fallible people have to decide what the Bible is affirming. Mistaken-prone human beings must do the hard work of interpretation. Imperfect people have to determine the meaning and purpose of Scripture.Derek Vreeland

Vreeland’s observations are current. However, what I think he misses is that problem of objectivity gets worse—much worse—if we reject the inerrancy of the Bible. If we accept the idea that the Bible is a collection of historical writings from good but fallible men and, therefore, some of the things it teaches or affirms are in error, we are left with a much scarier set of questions. Then we have to ask:
Who determines which teachings in the Bible are free of error?
Who decides which biblical affirmations can be rejected as faulty?
Who determines which verses or passages we can ignore because they got it wrong?

In all three cases, the individual interpreter.

If we accept the Bible’s inerrancy, the differences of opinion between fallible human beings are naturally addressed by comparing the opinions to Scripture.

No, because inerrantists disagree on what scripture teaches, which would hardly be the case if scripture were "clear". 

The text of the Bible becomes the arena in which the battle of interpretation is waged. On the other hand, if the Bible is errant, we can only appeal to the ever-shifting arena of public opinion to work out the differences.

I don't see the problem, YOU are errant, yet you seem to find your way in the world just fine without some infallible person showing what to do and where to go.  A better question is what's more reasonable:  denying inerrancy because it is false and accepting the consequent increase in bible-difficulties?  Or accepting inerancy despite its falsity so that you can feel secure that there's some magical book guiding your life, when in fact because of the need for interpretation, the book's magic never actually gets to you, YOU are guiding your life by YOUR interpretation of that book. How could it be otherwise?

The Authority of Scripture
Vreeland claims that the language of inerrancy grows out of an “evangelical anxiety of elevating a human critique of Scripture over the intended divine revelation within the text.” And he’s not wrong. We should have serious anxiety about elevating our own opinions over the teachings of Scripture.

But it is an "opinion" that says the bible is inerrant.  When you say "the bible is inerrant", you mean some defined canon of books, different from the Catholic and Orthodox canons.   You also mean that the teachings of the biblical authors are inerrant, which is foolish since it wouldn't matter if this were true, you are never going to successfully trivialize the need for subjectivity.  We see inerrantist Christians in constant disagreement (I'm mean the serious scholars, not just any yayhoo, see Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society).  I have to wonder how dumb it really is to insist that a text that proves to be fatally subjective in meaning, must nevertheless be "inerrant".

If we get to decide what parts of the Bible are right and which parts are in error, we are putting the Word of God under submission to (what even Vreeland would concede) are the opinions of fallible humans.

Fallible humans also wrote the originals, and later fallible humans decided which books should go together.  Belief in inerrancy might make it seem as if there is a decrease in subjectivity, but it doesn't.

In other words, we’re putting subjective human opinions in position of authority over the Bible.

What makes you think the human authors of the originals weren't putting their subjective opinions in a position of authority over God?  You'd be begging the question to say "my belief in inerrancy!" 

If Vreeland is right and the Bible is errant, we need to update his quote to read:
Fallible people get to decide what the Bible got right and wrong. Mistaken-prone human beings get to determine the meaning and purpose of Scripture.

 I'm not seeing the problem, because that has never ceased being the case with Christians for the last 2,000 years.  Once again, inerrant text without inerrant interpretive guide is just stupid, stupid, stupid.  As soon as you start in with "well maybe God wanted a person to be a Jehovah Witness for 30 years before showing them the truth..." you permanently open a door to justifying disagreement with your god.  I don't want to believe something false, EVER.  So if your god wants me to believe something false for any reason, then apparently a sinner has greater desire for truth than even your god.

If the Bible is not inerrant in all it teaches and affirms, then anything goes.

"anything goes" is what inerrantist Christians have given to the world with their contradictory "biblical" answers to issues of Jesus' resurrection, his "deity", the theological implications of his death (Protestants and Catholics disagree on this), abortion, pacifism, death penalty, dating, church attendance, creationism, Lordship Salvation, etc.

Each of us get to decide—as a community or even as individuals—which teachings seem right to us. The parts we don’t agree with, or we don’t understand, or don’t “feel” right can be dismissed as ancient human errors.

Inerrantist Trinitarian Christian apologists Copan and Flannagan (2014) get rid of the bible texts showing God commanded his people to slaughter children, by saying that because the pagans living around the Hebrews in the days of Moses often exaggerated their war victories, we may safely assume the Hebrews did the same.  So since "exaggerate" means "go beyond the truth", and there is no other category this would be except "error", we have modern inerrantists admitting that biblical authors sometimes spoke errantly.

A fanatical inerrantist will narrowly define "error" as a falsehood which the biblical author intended the reader to believe...that way, when errors are proven, the inerrantist can simply scream "satire" or something else and insist that because the bible author didn't intend the reader to take the factual assertions literally, then presto, there is no genuine "error" here.  But they can know nothing about God except from the bible, and there's nothing in the bible suggesting that certain types of error, "don't count".

And, as Augustine so eloquently wrote seventeen centuries ago:

If you believe what you like in the Gospel, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the Gospel you believe, but yourself.—Augustine

Then all inerrantists are guilty of this, since they all reject biblical teachings they don't like.  For example, they don't like that the earliest gospel found great significance in Jesus' pre-cross teachings, but saw none in Jesus' alleged resurrection appearances.  So they come up with fancy excuses for insisting that Mark had more to say after 16:8.  Maybe the last page went missing.  Or maybe Mark disagreed with the other 3 gospel authors and decided that the resurrection appearances should be limited to the oral-stage.  Or maybe Mark wanted to be less direct in telling the reader that the risen Christ was seen by his disciples.  Etc, etc.  They obviously don't like the notion that Mark intended to end at 16:8.

We cannot claim that Scripture is our authority and at the same time exercise our own fallible human authority over what it says by vetoing or rejecting certain teachings.

That's idealistic, but inerrantists still violate this every day.  If Revelation seems to say something you don't like, you can choose from several different interpretive schools to get rid of the problem.

Recognizing Error
Here’s one way to think about this issue. In order to recognize that the Bible got a particular teaching wrong, we need to know what the “right” teaching is. In other words, we need to claim that we know better than the Scripture, that we have some level of knowledge over and above the Biblical authors.

No, we can know that one biblical teaching is false, if we can prove that it contradicts another biblical teaching.  Because they contradict each other, logically at least one of them has to be false, and whichever one is false doesn't matter, its falsity will defeat a claim of full biblical inerrancy. 

How else could we recognize an error unless we thought we knew the right answer?

By noting that two teachings contradict each other, so that logically one of them MUST be false even if you cannot know specifically which one is false. 

How does an English professor grade her student’s papers unless she knows the correct answers to the questions she asked?

Not a good analogy, the correct answers to English test questions are more obvious than the correct answers to the question of how to "correctly" interpret a bible verse.

And if we know better than the Bible, how can we claim it as an authority over our life?

Good point.  Jesus never expressed or implied that any of his followers ever had to "read the bible" to anywhere near the fanatical degree pushed by modern inerrantists.  Probably because he thought his 2nd Coming would occur sooner than any need to canonize a NT.

The spiritual and moral truths taught in Scripture are not reducible to facts on par with scientific knowledge. With science, we might come across an ancient writing that claimed the Earth was flat. But now that enlightened modern man has actually travelled through space and seen the Earth from above, we know that it is round. But the Bible is not a science book.

But if its words are "inspired by God" then the question is:  how likely is it that a god who is infinitely more fanatical about "truth" than today's inerrantists, might condescend to using mere "language of appearance" when addressing ancient mankind?  Would such a god ever tell a sinner "the sun is setting"?  We accept that language, but only because we don't care about truth to the same infinite degree that the inerrantist's god allegedly does.

This god was allegedly capable of causing even his enemies to believe whatever he wanted them to believe (Ezra 1:1).  So causing his human followers to write in the bible "the world is spherical in shape" wouldn't have been very difficult.  Not if we factor in God's sometimes granting them the ability to physically fly "up" to heaven (2nd Cor. 12:1-4) where they could presumably fly around and note that the earth is spherical.

It teaches us about issues of origin, purpose, morality, meaning, salvation, destiny. These aren’t the types of issues on which modern humanity has uncovered some enlightening new information. These are the foundational elements of the human experience.

We certainly know a whole lot more about human biology today than our ancient ancestors did. And yet, the human body still needs the same fundamentals it always has: food, water, oxygen, rest.

I think that is a valid point, but...isn't this what most apologists would label as the fallacy of uniformitarianism (the present is the key to the past)?  Wouldn't a Christian have a problem with you presuming that the way human bodies work today is the way they worked in the past?  After all, using the present to interpret the past is precisely why naturalism rejects the miraculous aspects in ancient stories.

Humans also still need—as we always have—love, meaning, moral direction, spiritual salvation. Those things have not changed since the Bible was written.

Preaching to the choir.

In Sum
The questions that progressive Christianity asks are hauntingly similar to the question that the devil asked Eve in the Garden of Eden.

“Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” (Gen 3:1)

Now you are just playing upon the fears of the choir. 

This is how our spiritual enemy began his campaign to draw Eve into disobeying God, and in the process, brought down the whole human race.

Blame it on God.  That's what Calvinists advise me to do. 

Progressive Christianity uses that same question today: “Did God actually say ________?”

Because if they DIDN'T ask that question, then they would have no reason to bother distinguishing alleged words of God, from other works which pretend to give, but don't really give, words of God. 

Fill in the blank with whatever biblical teaching you want. Rejecting the inerrancy of the Bible is the doorway into asking these kinds of questions.

No, acceptance of inerrancy is also the doorway into asking these questions, since as soon as the inerrantist thinks some bit of the bible wasn't in the originals, they confuse their imperfect textual opinion for God's own presence. At the end of the day, a Christian cannot possibly believe anything beyond what his fallible human mind has decided is "truth".

Did God actually say that Jesus is the only way to salvation?

Not sure that it makes any sense to remark that god "said" anything.  If God is spirit (John 4:24) and spirits are not composed of human parts (Luke 24:39), then you'll have to come up with a theory of non-physical-vocal-cords-in-another-dimension-which-can-nevertheless-disturb-the-physical-air-in-this-world, before it can make sense to further remark about the bible god "saying" anything.  It's arguments like this which justify skepticism toward biblical stories about voices coming from the sky.  Or you'll have to establish the possibility of telepathy so that God can "say" something directly to the brain of a human being.  Good luck.  What?  Daniel 9?  LOL.

The OT prophets always spoke dogmatically, yet according to Jeremiah there were many who were false. Apparently, not even when you have the very word of God delivered direct by the true prophet, would it be the least bit "clear" that God is truly inspiring him. 

Did God actually say homosexual behavior is a sin?

Did God ever tell anybody that the death-penalty for homosexuality was "fulfilled" any more than the prohibition on adultery was?  It's probably no coincidence that what "god" wants his followers to do proves to get more and more tolerant and liberal as the centuries roll on.  If you are gay in the days of Moses, you die.  If you are gay in modern America, "we'll pray for you". 

Did God actually say that the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church?

No, that was Paul the heretic. Since he perverted the basic gospel, the question of whether he had anything else useful to say at all, is about as moot as the question of whether Mormons have anything useful to say.  Yes, the probably do, but because of their great heresies, probably best to just completely avoid their advice.

If we regard the Bible as errant, these questions are all fair game for changing the teachings handed down by Jesus and the Apostles into a faith we’re more comfortable with personally.

And you just described exactly how things are in the inerrantist-camp.  They are just shrewd lawyers who pretend they aren't rejecting, but only "interpreting", whereas it appears the more honest answer is that they are doing both. 

On the other hand, if we regard the Bible as inerrant, when we come to passages that rub our modern sensibilities the wrong way, we’re forced to wrestle with them.

A completely unnecessary headache, given how obvious it is that bible inerrancy is a false doctrine. 

And in the end the question is this. Do we adjust our beliefs to align with what God teaches, or do we adjust what God teaches to align with our beliefs?

Neither, God hasn't provided an infallible interpretive key to the bible, so you are stuck forever in subjective interpretation, a thing that keeps even conservative Protestant Trinitarians in disagreement with each other, let alone with non-Protestant denominations.

Friday, February 26, 2021

Refuting Matthew Flannagan's defense of Divine Command Theory

Inerrantist Christian philosopher and apologist Dr. Matthew Flannagan continues pressing his pro-Divine-Command-Theory (DCT) arguments and thus wrangling words repeatedly about doctrine as if he never knew that 2nd Timothy 2:14 condemns word-wrangling and thus condemns all Christians who obtained higher education in analytic philosophy.  The one discipline in the world that makes you the most prone to thinking word-wrangling is godly, is analytic philosophy.

Flannagan's latest paper is "Why the Horrendous Deeds Objection Is Still a Bad Argument" which Sophia accepted: 26 October 2020, Springer Nature B.V. 2021.

I posted the following challenge/rebuttal to him at his blog http://www.mandm.org.nz/2021/02/published-in-sophia-why-the-horrendous-deeds-objection-is-still-a-bad-argument.html

--------------------------

Your paper apparently silently presumes that God would never command a man to rape a woman (and you'd be out of a job if you ever pretended God might possibly command rape).  

And it is clear in ALL of your apologetics writings that you want the world to know that unbelievers cannot be reasonable in accusing the bible-god of atrocities.

I offer a DCT argument to refute one particular belief of yours, namely, that those who accuse the bible-god of moral atrocities are unreasonable.  On the contrary, we are equally as reasonable as anybody who accuses the KJV of having translation mistakes.

The atheist's alleged inability to properly ground morals wouldn't help you overcome this rebuttal even if that accusation was true.  YOU believe burning a child to death is worse than raping him or her, so if I can show that your own presuppositions require that God caused people to burn children to death, you will be forced to logically conclude that your god has committed atrocities worse than rape.

God said through Isaiah in 700 b.c.  that He caused the Assyrians to commit their war-atrocities:

 5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger And the staff in whose hands is My indignation,

 6 I send it against a godless nation And commission it against the people of My fury To capture booty and to seize plunder, And to trample them down like mud in the streets. (Isa. 10:5-6 NAU)

Ashurnasirpal II was king of Assyria from 883 to 859, and  admitted "I burnt their adolescent boys [and] girls.”  You may trifle that this was typical semitic exaggeration, but the fact that we have pictorial reliefs portraying Assyrians "flaying alive" their prisoners certainly makes it reasonable for a person to conclude that Ashurnasirpal's boasts were true to reality.  The production date for such relief is 660BC-650BC, so the specific sort of Assyrians that Isaiah speaks about in 700 b.c aren't likely less barbaric than Ashurnasirpal II.

To say nothing of the fact that every Assyriologist I've come across acts as if the literal truth of the Assyrian war atrocities was a foregone conclusion.  One example is BAR 17:01 (Jan/Feb 1991), "Grisly Assyrian Record of Torture and Death"  by Erika Belibtreu, professor of Near Eastern Archaeology at Vienna University, where she has worked since 1963.  

You can hardly fault atheists for failing to notice all that "semitic exaggeration" when actual Assyriologists think such descriptions are  telling about actual realities.  Just like you cannot fault the ignorant teenage girl who "accepts Jesus" in an inerrantist Evangelical church on the basis of writings by Norman Geisler, and doesn't notice all the obvious philosophical blunders he committed.

 I can predict you will trifle that God's use of the Assyrians doesn't mean he "caused" them to burn children to death, but Isaiah continues in ch. 10 and uses an analogy that makes the Assyrian the axe, and God is the one who uses it to chop things with:

 12 So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, "I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness."

 13 For he has said, "By the power of my hand and by my wisdom I did this, For I have understanding; And I removed the boundaries of the peoples And plundered their treasures, And like a mighty man I brought down their inhabitants,

 14 And my hand reached to the riches of the peoples like a nest, And as one gathers abandoned eggs, I gathered all the earth; And there was not one that flapped its wing or opened its beak or chirped."

 15 Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it? That would be like a club wielding those who lift it, Or like a rod lifting him who is not wood. (Isa. 10:12-15 NAU)

Hence, your theory that unbelievers can never be reasonable to accuse the bible-god of atrocities worse than child-rape, is false.

Update August 13, 2021:

Matthew Flannagan's blog usually allows the reader to post a response, and the bottom part of his blog posts looks like this:



see, e.g., http://www.mandm.org.nz/2021/03/12473.html#respond


But Flannagan has configured the webpage containing my rebuttal remarks, so that it no longer allows replies:


See, e.g., mandm.org.nz/2021/02/published-in-sophia-why-the-horrendous-deeds-objection-is-still-a-bad-argument.html#comment-260033

No, clicking the the "respond" button doesn't work.  I don't know if Matt will admit that he deliberately disabled the possibility of further commenting on that specific blog post, or if he will do what he did before, and claim ignorance as to why his blog often doesn't allow me to post replies.

Either way, Flannagan's question was insulting and in no wise a reply on the merits.  His Sophia article drew the following conclusion:


Emphasis added by me.

Therefore, it should be clear that my argument that God has commanded people to do things worse than child rape was a very relevant refutation of the the God-is-essentially-good presupposition which Flannagan based his Sophia article on.

It is not false to accuse the bible-god of being essentially evil (i.e., evil according to the standards of Christians, who always presume the evil of any person who would facilitate or command child rape).

My response to Flannagan's blog post was in rebuttal to Flanngan's concluding remarks in the linked SOPHIA article, therefore, my remarks could not have been MORE relevant.  Yet Flannagan has a nasty habit of constantly and falsely accusing his critics of either not reading his argument or misunderstanding him.

Thursday, December 12, 2019

Cold Case Christianity: Answering Hard Questions About Christianity (Podcast)

This is my reply to an article by J. Warner Wallace entitled:



In this episode of the podcast, J. Warner joins Bill Arnold on Faith Radio to respond to listener questions. How do we present the Gospel to people who are dying of a terminal disease?
You tell their relatives to follow Jesus, and use the phrase "let the dead bury the dead" to discourage their attendance at the inevitable funeral:
 21 Another of the disciples said to Him, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father."
 22 But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead." (Matt. 8:21-22 NAU) 
 59 And He said to another, "Follow Me." But he said, "Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father."
 60 But He said to him, "Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God." (Lk. 9:59-60 NAU)
Then you tell them Jesus came for the purpose of breaking up families:
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
 35 "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
 36 and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. (Matt. 10:34-36 NAU)
Jesus being the perfect example of such since his own immediate family saw nothing compelling about his miracles and continued failing to properly honor him:
 4 Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household." (Mk. 6:4 NAU)
Then you tell them exactly what actions Jesus thought this information implied, such as Jesus promising that those of his followers who abandon their own children will receive salvation and other rewards:

 29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. (Matt. 19:29 NAU)

That's how you act when you want to be more "Christ-like".   Wallace next asks:
Can we make a decision for Jesus even though we have big, unanswered questions?
Can we make a decision for Mormonism even though we have big, unanswered questions?

Can skeptics be reasonable to make a decision about the resurrection of Jesus, even if they have big, unanswered questions?

That puts Christian apologists in a pickle, as they are rather hypocritical and arbitrary. as the following represents how most "apologists" feel:  
"you can always be rational to make a decision for Christ no matter how stupid you are, as putting off the day of your salvation is quite dangerous in light of even the non-flame version of hell, and the fact that you could die any second.  But skeptics?  They are not reasonable to deny the resurrection of Jesus even if they delayed that decision while they conducted 20 years of research into the arguments of Habermas, Licona and William Lane Craig.  Such blind dogmatism is the way we fundies continually foster a protective 'us v. them' mentality, keeping them in the faith is more important than whether their reasons for staying are academically rigorous.  But only for Protestant Trinitarians.  All other "Christians" are intellectually obligated to keep saying "I don't know", no matter how much research they do, until they find a reason to join the Protestant Trinitarians."
Except that a skeptic could easily undercut such self-serving idiocy by raising the specter of the unbeliever who is tempted to make a decision for Christ... that is, the Christ of Jehovah Witnesses.  Ahhh, then suddenly, you "must" recognize that Jesus is god or else the Christ you accept will false and thus insufficient to actually save you, and picking the wrong form of Christianity increases how much trouble you are in with God (Galatians 1:8-9).  FUCK YOU.   Wallace continues:
Why does the Bible seem to condone slavery?
There's no "seem" about it:  the kind of slavery Moses wanted his Hebrews to practice was as follows:  Go make war against that nation over there, kill everybody including the male babies, spare only the prepubescent girls so they can become your house slaves, and remember, if any such recently traumatized girl refuses to do the dishes like you ask her to after you get her back to your house, "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft":
 12 They brought the captives and the prey and the spoil to Moses, and to Eleazar the priest and to the congregation of the sons of Israel, to the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by the Jordan opposite Jericho.
 13 Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the congregation went out to meet them outside the camp.
 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, who had come from service in the war.
 15 And Moses said to them, "Have you spared all the women?
 16 "Behold, these caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, so the plague was among the congregation of the LORD.
 17 "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.
 18 "But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. (Num. 31:12-18 NAU)
 23 "For rebellion is as the sin of divination, And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry.  (1 Sam. 15:23 NAU)

That is how you say "fuck you" to Paul Copan, Matthew Flannagan, and other allegedly Christian "apologists" who prefer to spend their every waking moment pretending there's nothing more to say about Hebrew slavery except what can be extracted from the more politically correct portions of the "Law".

I could go on on that subjet alone, for example, Moses in Numbers 31 is reasonably construed as thinking that those little girls did not have the stain of the sexual sin at Peor which was being avenged (Numbers 25).  But even assuming the girls' virginity was still intact, did Moses not realize there are other ways to sexually sin beyond vaginal intercourse?  If one of those prepubescent Midianite girls engaged in cunnilingus with a Midianite man, wouldn't this count, in the eyes of Moses, as making her guilty of sexual sin?  What, did Moses think the sin of pedophile cunnilingus was more forgivable than the sin of pedophile intercourse?  How would that help the apologist who wants to eliminate every possible vestige of pedophilia from the Israelites?

How would the Hebrews have determined whether a girls' hymen was still intact?  If it was typical back then for virgin girls to wear clothing distinctive from the clothing worn by non-virgin girls, then all of the Midianites would have known this, and if as Christian apologists allege, rape was an inevitable war atrocity among the pagans, then the non-virgin Midianite women would have recognized the value of dressing in the clothing of virgins as soon as they detected their nation was under attack....in which case we have to wonder how many Midianite woman, non-virgin and stained with the Midianite sexual sin, brought their sinful selves into the homes of the Hebrew army men.

In light of how important virginity was to the Hebrews, they might have felt this justified using their eyesight to confirm the virginity of the spared girls...just like nobody likes to stick something up their ass, but when you doctor says its time for a checkup, you generally subjegate your normative preferences for others, for the sake of higher good.  So it doesn't matter if you can't stand the thought of the Hebrew army men viewing the vaginas of kidnapped prepubescent girls recently traumatized by watching their families be slaughtered by the same Hebrew men, skeptics are more worried about actual reality, than in helping you spin history to make yourself feel better about what must have been horribly brutish culture wars that now stain the pages of your bible.

Notice also, Moses didn't need a specific word of the Lord, his men would obey his atrocious orders even if he didn't specify that he was speaking for God at that particular moment. So the Hebrews would that much more stupid and brutish for being willing to kill kids merely on command of their human leader, in absence of any proof that such command was required by their 'god'.

Christian apologists know perfectly well that if what happened to those poor Midianite girls happened to themselves in very similar circumstances, they would immediately conclude, from the barbarity alone, that their captors are nothing but brutish sociopathic slugs.  They would not trifle about all the possibilities that the bible-god willed this and perhaps their sinful imperfect selves might have read too much evil into the possible "good" of massacreing people and kidnapping some to use as slaves.

But no, when its in the bible and approved by god, you cannot do anything else except automatically call it good. You have all the objectivity of a hysterical Pentecostal during an exorcism during a 1960's tent-revival.  FUCK YOU.
What did early Christians believe about hell?
Irrelevant, the one place where Jesus (the gold standard by which anything else must be judged, at least as far as Christian apologists are concerned) most clearly presented eternal conscious misery as a possible fate for Gentiles is Matthew 25, and after the quote, I follow with some disconcerting concerns:
 31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
 35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
 38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
 39 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
 40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
 45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
 46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:31-46 NAU)
The following considerations are reasonable, and their reasonableness is not going to disappear merely because a desperate Christian apologist misrepresents some other legitimate possibility as if it was the only "correct" interpretation:

First, my rebuttals to Licona, Turek, Habermas and Craig on the resurrection of Jesus are weighty and substantial (e.g., the 1st Corinthians 15 "creed" has no historical value, there are only 3 eyewitness testimonies to the resurrection of Jesus, all three of these are easily falsified on the merits, nothing in the NT or extrabiblical historical evidence such as Josephus justifies inferring Jesus' brother James ever actually converted to Christianity, Paul was a deluded maniac who thought he could physically fly up into heaven, the kind of witness any juror would not only disbelieve, but murder as well, the multiple attestation of Jesus' burial is rather weak, Jesus' family not finding his miracles the least bit credible and their committing the unpardonable sin justifies concluding Jesus was more like Benny Hinn than a truly miracle working prophet, Deut. 13 reminds us that even false prophets can work true miracles so that Jesus' miracle of resurrection would not answer the question of whether he was truly the son of God, The earliest gospel did not allege the risen Christ was seen by anybody, there is no rule of common sense or logic that requires any living person to ever give two fucks what is stated in religious documents more than 1,000 years old, etc, etc, etc), so in light of how reasonable it is to view evidence of Jesus' resurrection as incredibly weak and unworthy of credit, what exactly Jesus taught and what exactly he meant or how best to interpret his surviving words, is about as relevant to a person's eternal safety as is which box of cereal they should buy to shut up their screaming tykes.

Second, even assuming Jesus rose from the dead and therefore unbelieving Gentiles endure a real risk of entering an eternity of misery and shame upon death, nothing about "faith" is expressed or implied anywhere in this Matthew 25 "judgment of the nations".

Third, those who according to this teaching make it into heaven likely did not have specifically Christian faith, because they honestly did not realize what anybody with Christian education would know, that to help the poor is to help Jesus (vv. 37-39).  Jesus certainly cannot be talking about the Gentiles who actually heard him teach, since they would then not expres that ignorance on judgment day.  So Jesus was likely mostly talking about Gentiles that never actually heard his teachings.  Inerrantist Craig Blomberg trifles:

25:37–39 Many of the sheep are understandably surprised. No doubt several of these conditions did characterize Christ at various stages of his earthly life, but the vast majority of the “righteous” will not have been present then and there to help him. So how did all this happen? Many interpreters have seen this surprise as indicating that these people were “anonymous Christians”—righteous heathen who did good works but never heard the gospel. But the text never says they were surprised to be saved, merely that they did not understand how they had ministered so directly to Jesus.
Blomberg, C. (2001, c1992). Vol. 22: Matthew (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (Page 377). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.
What Blomberg is missing is that the one kind of people most likely to fail to realize that their helping the poor constituted helping Jesus, would be non-Christians.   And since Jews wuld likely know that Proverbs 19:17 defines helping the poor as helping God, it is highly unlikely that the righteous crowd expressing surprised at Jesus are Jews.  "The least of these my brethren" more than likely means the poor in general, which is consistent with Luke's Christ-Beatitudes, where the author does not qualify "poor" or "hungry", reasonably implying that Jesus thinks just anybody that is poor and/or hungry in any way, deserves to be called "blessed".

Fourth, this teaching on 'how to get saved' is perfectly legalistic: not only is there evidence against the righteous here having any 'faith' whatsoever, that is the context within which Jesus makes clear that it was because they engaged in good works that they are given salvation (vv. 34-36). What theory best explains the tendency of 90% of fundamentalist Christians to immediately quote from Paul but never Jesus on the subject of "how to get saved"?  Easy:  Jesus was a legalist...today's protestant fundamentalist are not.  You tend to avoid quoting authorities you disagree with.

Fifth, I have very good reasons for saying bible inerrancy is a confused hurtful doctrine that cannot even be resolved by those who adopt it, and is likely false anyway, therefore, I am reasonable to regard it a false doctrine, and therefore, obviously disqualified from consideration as a hermeneutic (i.e., there is no intellectual constraint upon me to worry that I need to reconcile my interpretation of a bbile verse with the rest of the bible, before I can be confident my interpretation of the verse is accurate). 

So if I can be reasonable to avoid using bible inerrancy as a hermeneutic, then there is no intellectual compulsion on me to "harmonize" my interpretation of this "judgment of the nations" Christ-teaching with anything else in the bible.  So I don't give a shit if concluding Jesus was a legalist would require that he taught contrary to apostle Paul.  I have definite reasons to assert, on the merits, that Paul's gospel was in contradiction to the one Jesus taught.  Therefore I remain reasonable to limit my interpretation of Jesus' words to just the teaching itself, and not give a fuck whether that interpretation would make the bible contradict itself.

that Jesus taught leglism sure seems clear if we allow the immediate context to have primary importance when interpreting Matthew 5:17-20:
 17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:17-20 NAU)
Fundies will insist righteousness is imputed to us from the cross, but unfortunately:

a) what Jesus meant must first be gleaned from the "immediate context".  Romans 4:4-5 and Galatians 2:21 are not the "immediate context" for Matthew 5.  Slopping different parts of the bible together the way a little girl makes one big ball of ice-cream out of two scoops might be the manner of a fundamentalist who thinks "proof-texting" is the human body's only hope of processing oxygen,  but I prefer a method that is a bit more exegetically responsible.  The immediate context here would be Matthew 5:21 ff, where Jesus makes it clear that he demands his followers evince actual personal righteousness.  The burden is therefore on the fundie who would trifle that nobody can produce righteous works until they first undergo righteousness by imputation.  once again, with good reason, I'm not an inerrantists, so I'm not the least bit unreasonable in refusing to "harmonize" my interpretation of Jesus in his own context, with anything the apostle Paul taught.

b)  Since the allegedly risen Christ said ALL of his pre-Cross teachings apply to Gentiles after the Cross (Matthew 28:20), and since, obviously, the alleged author Matthew certainly seems to believe the gospel to the Jews is identical in every way to the gospel to the Gentiles, you cannot even escape the legalism with dispensationalism and pretending "the cross changed the covenant".  What Jesus actually meant in his own context is probably more important than the fallible inferences you draw based on your equally fallible and more than likely false belief in biblical inerrancy.   Wallace's next question:
What does it mean to “trust” the Gospel?
Whatever it means, it cannot mean "Lordship salvation", and it doesn't mean "walking daily with Jesus", since Jesus explicitly forbade the Gentile Gerasene demonic, who converted to Jesus and wanted to become his close compansion, from staying near him, and in such a charge Jesus did not express or imply that the man ever needed to get near Jesus in the future:
38 But the man from whom the demons had gone out was begging Him that he might accompany Him; but He sent him away, saying,
 39 "Return to your house
and describe what great things God has done for you." So he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him. (Lk. 8:38-39 NAU)
Therefore, Jesus thinks one can reasonably be construed as trusting the gospel even if the way they converted did not and does not lead to them "walking daily with Jesus".

Fudies will scream that this is false, but on the contrary, Jesus' interactions with actual gentiles in actual instances consistently show that he felt he needed no more association with them than to grant their particular request.  The real Jesus had nothing to do with the fundamenetalist Jesus that demands a close daily walk with Gentiles, and warns them to constantly study the scriptures, etc, etc:

 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."
 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."
 24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
 26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
 27 But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
 28 Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.   (Matt. 15:22-28 NAU)

 5 And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him,
 6 and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented."
 7 Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him."
 8 But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
 9 "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it."
 10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.
 11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
 13 And Jesus said to the centurion, "Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed." And the servant was healed that very moment.   (Matt. 8:5-13 NAU)

Jesus interacts with the Samaritan woman in John 4, but she leaves with intent to tell others (v. 28) and we never hear about her again.

Jesus had an initial ministry to Gentiles (Matthew 4:15) and was often followed by large crowds likely including Gentiles, but according to Mark 1:45, Jesus didn't always want fellowship with those who desired to hear him preach.  That doesn't mean such crowds were only superficially interested in Jesus, as he refused to immediately dismiss such crowds (John 6:26, where John unwittingly testifies against the credibility of Jesus' miracles by alleging that that lots of people were following Jesus not because he did "signs" but because he gave them food).

Once again, the babies will scream that our interpretation cannot be correct unless it can be harmonized with everything else in the NT, but this is false on two fronts:

a) as I already explained, bible inerrancy is not nearly so clear that it deserves to be exalted in our minds to the status of governing hermeneutic, so that failure to do so does not render us "unreasonable" as inerrantists would otherwise scream, and

b) when you seek to harmonize your interpretation of one verse with the "rest of the bible", it is more correct to say you are trying to reconcile your interpretation with your interpretation of the rest of the bible.  Fundies often say "this part of the bible is so clear it doesn't need interpretation', but that's just ignorance.  When it comes to correctly understanding ancient texts, by necessity they cannot ever be as automatically clear in meaning as, say the headline for yesterday's edition of the New York Times.  The very fact that smart Christian scholars and apologists disagree with each other about nearly every biblical matter (except perhaps Jesus' gender) robustly witnesses to the fact that "letting the bible speak for itself" is nothing more than a dangerously stupid colloquialism.  Therefore, using bible inerrancy as a hermeneutic really IS a case of insisting there is harmony between your interpretation of a bible verse, and your interpretation of the rest of the bible.

But if this be a more accurate way to describe the "inerrancy-as-hermeneutic" phenomenon, then this boils down to merely you trying to make the whole collection of your interpretations of the bible harmonize...which means you are blindly assuming that your imperfect interpretations are indeed correct beyond question.

c) KJV Onlyists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Disciples of Christ, Oneness Pentecostals Calvinists, dispensationalists and others you accuse of inaccuracy or "heresy" also believe in biblical inerrancy and use it as a hermeneutic.  But since you agree their using bible inerrancy as a final check on any one of their particular interpretations has not helped them to see the true biblical light, you can hardly blame the outsider or skeptic for concluding that bible inerrancy really isn't a legitimate tool of hermeneutics, it only looks like that because of the dogma that naturally comes with preaching inerrancy.   You can hardly blame the skeptic who thinks bible inerrancy is, at the end of the day, a completely useless tool, and perhaps a harmful tool; one that would help insulate them from reason should they pick the wrong church and then start insisting that their particular doctrines are "consistent" with the "rest of the bible". 

Therefore, the skeptic has full rational warrant to reject bible inerrancy and limit their tools of interpretation to simply grammar, immediate context, larger context of the author, genre of the book and perhaps insights from the social sciences.   Any interpretation that results from use of these universally acknowledged tools of interpretation is going to remain reasonable regardless of how much a fundie can trifle otherwise.  Wallace next asks:
Is Christianity “anti-science”?
Some factions are more so than others.  Young Earth creationists are high on crack.  Old Earth creationists have not done worse than chug a few beers.

However, the very fact that the Roman Catholic Church cited scripture against Galileo's heliocentric model and found nothing persuasive in Galileo's trifle that maybe scripture speaks "phenomenologically", conclusively proves that, where one is not already aware of scientific facts supporting heliocentricity or the stationary status of the sun, they will more than likely conclude the bible teaches the geocentric model.

Sure is funny that before heliocentricity was confirmed scientifically, no Christian ever noticed that scriptural statements about the movement of the sun were mere "language of appearance".  They didn't start wondering about that until they learned about scientific findings suggesting a spherical earth or a stationary sun.. except of course Galileo, a person who believed the bible was the word of God and thus felt forced to find some way to harmonize the bible with truths he saw through his telescope.

In other words, the pre-scientific people who were the original addressees would never have thought such bible texts were mere "language of appearance".  And every Christian knows about that hermeneutic that says we need to ask ourselves how the originally intended audience for the biblical books would likely have interpreted them.  So it cannot possibly be unreasonable to interpret the bible as teaching geocentrism.

My reply to Bellator Christi's "Three Dangerous Forms of Modern Idolatry"

I received this in my email, but the page it was hosted on appears to have been removed  =====================  Bellator Christi Read on blo...