Resurrecting a dead Tekton Ticker Link, Holding's lies about the libel lawsuit

This is merely my reply to something Holding posted while the lawsuits were pending.

To read the full story,  start with the comprehensively detailed First Amended Complaint which I filed in federal court, download here. 

James Patrick Holding, the homosexual apologist I sued, twice, took down his legal funding webpage after the lawsuits concluded.  He mentions the lawsuit and link here.

The link to "funded justice" is expired, but still available through wayback here.

I will now answer Holding's statements on that page, and you might discover why Holding allowed it to expire.  No, it wasn't because the lawsuit was concluded.  It was because he said stupid shit that makes him sound dishonest:

Social Sharing will be enabled when the project is launched.

In July 2015, 20 members of the TheologyWeb forum were named as targets of a “libel” lawsuit by a former atheist member.

 False.  I spoke of possibly suing the other 19, but Holding, the Mr. Bigmouth of the group, was the only one ever specifically named in any filed lawsuit (aside from a "John Doe" who was never identified).   But characterizing this as "named as targets" is just a bit misleading.

Two of us are pictured who are public figures among the 20, including myself.

Neither Holding nor Nick Peters are public figures.  Holding never claimed such status or defense in the lawsuits and he isn't a public figure according to the legal standards of his own home state of Florida.  See Porter v. Sanchez, Dist. Court, MD Florida 2017

So far only one (me, James Patrick Holding) has been served with complaint and summons, and litigation is in process. Of the remaining 19 people, many are vulnerable because of their limited incomes, or because of serious health issues for themselves or their family.

 Concerns that could just as easily have been true about me, but which didn't slow down Holding in the least from libeling me.  Nobody wonders why Holding, after the lawsuits, let his 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation be administratively dissolved and suddenly discovered the good of focusing on Indonesian churches.  It is only they that might express any approval of Holding's libels, given their honor/shame approach.  Perhaps Holding will consider moving to some poverty-stricken part of Indonesia where illiteracy reigns, so that he can just publicly cuss anybody who disagrees with him, and REALLY do things the way Jesus did; live and in real-time.  Holding is a pussy, more like the 6 year old doing prank phone calls, than the fearless leader who smears his opponents to their faces in real time the way Jesus allegedly did.  Holding never once talked shit to Dr. Richard Carrier during their live 2009 debate. Holding has proven that while he likes the "call names" part of the bible, he doesn't like the "say it to my face, bitch" part of the bible.

An attorney has been hired, and for the past several months has been working on the case.

Which was a pointless waste of money since Holding boasted in 2015 and 2016 that any libel lawsuit would be frivolous and could be dismissed with nothing more than his mailing in a motion to dismiss.  Stupid assholes sometimes need to be kicked in the head before they discover the obvious, and Holding was never any exception.

A win for me in court will help shield the other 19 targeted defendants.

 That's right, fuck the merits, all you care about is winning at any cost.  Perhaps that's why you begged for donations without offering a link to the Complaints/Lawsuits filed against you.  Perhaps the people that donated money to your legal fund didn't give two shits whether you were guilty under the law or not, seeing as they never so much as even asked to review the merits of my case against you before deciding whether to donate. Their hero was in trouble, and they flocked to you like toddlers flock to a parent.  No thinking or reasoning, just automatic knee-jerk response.

We humbly ask for the assistance of others in defending ourselves from this lawsuit.

 Maybe you should have provided a link to the Complaints.  That would enable a person to more objectively decide whether your infamously foul mouth actually crossed the line into actionable libel or not.

Any funds gathered will be used as follows:

1)      To defray my attorney expenses.  Currently we are working on a motion to dismiss the case based on lack of personal jurisdiction (I do not live in the same state as the Plaintiff).

Because you are a Pharisee, and as such, more worried to exploit trifles of law than argue the merits. Jesus accused the Pharisees of being legalistic hypocrites more worried about technicalities than broader concepts such as justice.  Matthew 23:23.

2)      To prepare a similar defense for any of the others in the group, should they be served with a suit.

Again, because you don't give a shit what the merits are, you merely come running to the aid of your friends as quickly as Nazis rush to the aid of Hitler.

3)      To prepare an alternate defense, should either 1) fail, or should one of us be sued in our own home state.

That's not quite as optimistic as your cocky belligerent bullshit from Tweb in 2015, where you mocked the very concept of you being sued for libel, and asserted how easy it would be to get my lawsuits dismissed.  Well fuck you.

Project FAQ
Has this cost you any legal fees so far?
Hello Jack, So far the toll has been $7700, of which $600 has been covered by other members of the forum. Thank you for contributing! JP

And don't ask about the merits, just rake in that money, never dreaming that even under your own worldview, stupid Christians coming to your undeserved legal rescue could also be something orchestrated by Satan.  Only dipshit undiscerning Christians automatically assume any winning of the Lottery comes solely from God.  But even stupid people know that signs of success can be enjoyed by those whom Satan is using.

Do I have to create an account to give a donation?
I'm told that there is a way to donate as a guest. Look for a button that says "continue as guest."

And don't worry about the merits of the lawsuit.  Once you've said "James Patrick Holding", you've uttered the words of unchangeable righteousness.

Can I donate with PayPal?
Yes. Please use my email address at sheilarangslinger@yahoo.com

WTF?  Whatever happened to your normal address jphold@att.net?

That still seems like a lot of money to spend. Does that mean the Plaintiff has a good case?
How much money is spent has very little to do with the virtues of a case.

False, you boasted in 2015 and 2016, long and loud, at your theologyweb playground that you could get any libel suit against you dismissed by merely mailing in a motion to dismiss.  There's a lot of difference between the cost of a 50-cent stamp and the cost of $21,000 in legal fees you eventually ended up footing.  But it certainly taught your stupid ass a lesson you'll never forget.  I made you kiss goodbye your dogshit non-profit corporation.  No coincidence that you held the tektonics 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation for 15 years, then dropped it like a hot potato after being sued for libel.  Trouble is, you cannot just admit you were defeated morally and biblically.  All you give one holy fuck about is the technicalities.

One of the most obviously frivolous suits in recent times was the so-called "pants" lawsuit, Pearson v. Chung, in which a judge sued a small dry cleaning business for allegedly losing his favorite pair of pants. The plaintiff, sued for $67 million because of alleged mental anguish and inconvenience. He even asked for damages because he would have to drive to a different dry cleaning business from now on. The Chungs spent over $80,000 on their legal defense (which thankfully, they recovered by way of fundraising efforts like this one) before the case was finally dismissed for the fraud it was. The sad fact is that Plaintiffs can make up all kinds of claims of damages and force litigation to occur.

Then how do you explain God being wrong about how easily frivolous lawsuits can be dismissed?  Why don't you use god's posts to Tweb in 2015 as proof that god exists?

What will happen to any unused funds?
The statute of limitations on the claim involved (libel) is up to two years. Once that has passed we'll disburse any remaining funds to charity.
Why has it taken several months for the case to progress to this point? Shouldn't it be dismissed by now?
The sad reality is that our court systems are clogged with cases, and it can take a long time to get to certain types of hearings like summary judgment dismissals.

False:  you were prepared to have a hearing on your motion to dismiss before you ever hired a lawyer.  The truth is that you were afraid, and rightly so, your motion to dismiss would be denied.  Since people like you commit suicide every time they are forced to admit they got something wrong, you thought it better to waste other people's hard earned money by hiring a lawyer, despite your cocky belligerent assurances at Tweb in 2015 of how incurably innocent you were of libel, and how any such lawsuit would be shockingly frivolous, you big-mouthed disgraced tail-chasing squealing marmot. 

In this case, we asked for a date for such a hearing in December 2015, and were told that May 6th was the earliest available date for a summary judgment. So there's no way we could have gotten a dismissal hearing any earlier.

You are a lying sack of shit:  You sent in several motions to dismiss and you obtained a hearing date for them before you ever hired a lawyer, and you voluntarily allowed your newly hired lawyer to strike these hearing dates.

Also, although it's been 7 months since my attorney started on the case, he's actually only worked a total of 30 or so hours in it in that period, plus some work by his paralegal. He does have other cases on his docket besides mine, which I appreciate. Either way, 30 hours seems pretty fast to me!

Gee, 30 hours studying a case that you assured everybody on Tweb in 2015 was completely frivolous in every way and could be dismissed with nothing more than your mailing in a motion to dismiss?

Did you get schooled the hard way?  Or does James Patrick Holding lack the requisite genetic hard-wiring necessary to notice when he has been stomped?  I vote for the latter, based on his internet history.  No, Christian Research Institute's keeping you on as a guest writer doesn't prove shit, Hank Hanegraaff is equally notorious as you for failing to notice when alleged Christian leaders have failed their biblical moral duty.  And Hank's apathy toward you not caring whether the bible is the inspired word of God or not...well let's just say its no surprise when hypocritcal evangelicals apostatize to the Greek Orthodox church.. Apparently, not even 20 years of defending Evangelical doctrine as the Bible AnswerMan is enough apologetics to ensure that you've found the actual "truth". The average atheist, who knows nothing of the bible, would be reasonable in light of such radical turnarounds, to refuse to bother with that tangled mess of ambiguous crap called "theology".

Why are you asking for dismissal based on personal jurisdiction and not the merits of the case?
Why does anyone do that? Attorneys regularly ask for dismissals based on jurisdiction rather the "merits" of a case.

And Pharisees routinely tithe mint and neglect the weightier matters of the law, like justice, Matthew 23:23.  Did you have a point?

A leading analogous case, Burdick vs Superior Court, is one such example, and there are many others. The simple answer though is that it is easier, faster, less expensive, and it discourages plaintiffs who are unlikely to be able to challenge the defendant on their own home turf, for whatever reason (expense, fear, etc.). I'd say all four of those apply here.

That makes no sense:  There is nothing easier, faster or less expensive about hiring a lawyer to represent you.  Once again, you filed your own motion to dismiss for lack of jurisdiction before you ever hired a lawyer.  But I thank you for hiring the unnecessary lawyer, because if you hadn't chosen to make things more expensive for yourself, I'd never have discovered those private internet messages in which you libeled me to other people.  Maybe you should write a book on how God doesn't catch YOU in your own crapiness.

Why have you not given out the name of the plaintiff or the details of the lawsuit?
It's pretty much standard that you don't talk about the details of your case publicly.

 Then you were violating "standard" conduct when blathering so uncontrollably like a 3 year old at Tweb in 2015 about how God (i.e., you) is not subject to lawsuit.

To me, that includes not discussing the names and identities of the opposing parties.

 Sure, but only after you publicly disclosed my name and the details of the case against you in your Internet Predator Alert, which your attorney forced you to take this down under threat of more liability.  Once again, Mr. Know-it-All got schooled the hard way, and would rather die than admit his mouth fucked up his life's ambition. 

Christianity Today: we need to ween ourselves away from the online robot

Once in a great while I'll find something in a Christian publication that I agree with.  Christianity Today for July/August 2018 has an article "The Bible's Slowness" by Sandra McCracken, and "Holy Inefficiency" by Christina Crook.  Here is one of her websites encouraging others to feel the joy of missing out.  Well said.

While the change must be to some extent arbitrary, the adult-kiddies need to start paying attention to the down-side of modern technology, instead of just gobbling it up like starving teenagers at a pizza party. 

Missing out on most of the online buzz would probably do you a lot of good.  How did we ever survive in the world when we weren't able to be connected to each other 24/7?

Cold Case Christianity: Using the law to destroy J. Warner Wallace's case for Mark's reliability

This is my reply to an article by J. Warner Wallace entitled

Cold Case Christianity: 

Good Reasons to Believe Peter Is the Source of Mark’s Gospel

Posted: 24 Aug 2018 01:00 AM PDT

The authorship of Mark’s Gospel is of great importance to those of us making a case for the reliability of the New Testament. Mark isn’t mentioned as an eyewitness in any of the Gospel accounts. How did Mark get his information about Jesus?

Well Mr. Wallace:  Mark's not being an eyewitness would make his own gospel "hearsay" in any court of law.  Since you are so big on the use-American-court-rules-of-evidence-on-the-gospels gimmick, you might begin by explaining how you figure the jury could ever be allowed to see Mark's gospel:

First, the gospels are 2,000 years old, thus requiring analysis of the "ancient documents" rule, Federal Rule of Evidence 803 (16): (of course, the rule was never meant to apply to documents that are 2,000 years old, but Wallace is stuck with that stupid application of the law since he wants to evaluate the gospels using modern American jurisprudence):

  (16) Statements in Ancient Documents. A statement in a document that was prepared before January 1, 1998, and whose authenticity is established.

 Second, the evidence rules tell us how "authenticity" is to be established, Federal Rule of Evidence 901(b)(8):

(8) Evidence About Ancient Documents or Data Compilations. For a document or data compilation, evidence that it:

(A) is in a condition that creates no suspicion about its authenticity;

(B) was in a place where, if authentic, it would likely be; and

(C) is at least 20 years old when offered.

Third, Mark doesn't pass the "condition that creates no suspicion about its authenticity" criteria.  

 The requirement that the document be free of suspicion relates not to the content of the document, but rather to whether the document is what it purports to be, and the issue falls within the trial court's discretion. United States v. Firishchak, 468 F.3d 1015, 1021 (7th Cir. 2006); United States v. Kairys, 782 F.2d 1374, 1379 (7th Cir.1986); United States v. Kalymon, 541 F.3d 624, 632-33 (6th Cir. 2008). "[T]he mere recitation of the contents of documents does not authenticate them or provide for their admissibility." Firishchak, 468 F.3d at 1021.

From Mathin v. Kerry, 782 F. 3d 804 - Court of Appeals, 7th Circuit 2015

From Eusebius, Church History, book 6, ch. 14:

Again, in the same books, Clement gives the tradition of the earliest presbyters, as to the order of the Gospels, in the following manner: The Gospels containing the genealogies, he says, were written first. The  Gospel according to Marks had this occasion. As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out. And having composed the Gospel he gave it to those who had requested it. When  Peter learned of this, he neither directly forbade nor encouraged it. But, last of all, John, perceiving that the external facts had been made plain in the Gospel, being urged by his friends, and inspired by the Spirit, composed a spiritual Gospel. This is the account of Clement.

If the person who is the purported source behind Mark refused to encourage the writing, then it doesn't matter why; from historian's perspective the notion that Peter thought Mark got some of the Petrine preaching wrong must remain forever among the possibilities.  The bar Mark must meet is not "reasonable", but "no suspicion".  Unless fundamentalists suddenly discover that Eusebius isn't as reliable as they wished (a position that itself opens doors to justified gospel authorship skepticism that they wish to remain closed), then Clement's remark here passes the historical criteria of embarrassment, and thus has greater claim to reliable history than any laudatory statement about Mark. 

Fourth, Mark fails the "was in a place where, if authentic, it would likely be" criteria, since provenance of the manuscripts earliest Mark comes from (Vaticanus, Siniaticus) are virtually unknown, and Mark's alleged traveling all over from Rome to Egypt would require the ridiculous result that this criteria is satisfied as long as a copy of Mark was found somewhere within a 3,000 mile radius! 

Furthermore, the tradition is that Mark gave the original to the church in Rome (a city having nothing to do with Siniaticus or Vaticanus).  Siniaticus was found in Saint Catherine's Monastery which is in Egypt, 1,500 miles away from Rome.  Vaticanus obviously comes from the Vatican library, but that only means that's where is was discovered.  But the provenance and early history of the codex is uncertain, see Aland, Kurt; Barbara Aland (1995). The Text of the New Testament: An Introduction to the Critical Editions and to the Theory and Practice of Modern Textual Criticism, trans. Erroll F. Rhodes. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. p. 109 (from wikipedia).  See also same here.


Fifth, even if Mark passed the ancient documents rule, the fact that it is allegedly Mark quoting Peter means it is still classic hearsay, and if no exception allowing it can be found, it remains inadmissible hearsay. Contrary to popular belief, demonstrating the authenticity of the document doesn't end the analysis, the document must still conform with the rules allowing hearsay, or the document must remain inadmissible:

Even if a document qualifies as ancient under Rule 803(16), other hearsay exceptions must be used to render each individual layer of hearsay admissible. This interpretation best reconciles the underlying justifications of Rule 803(16) with the limitations of Rule 805."). See also New England Mut. Life Ins. Co. v. Anderson, 888 F.2d 646, 650 (10th Cir. 1989) (upholding exclusion of statements reported in newspaper article as inadmissible hearsay). As previously stated, the newspaper articles fall within the exception for ancient documents. However, as to the statements of other declarants (apart from the author), Ms. Murphy has not shown that any other hearsay exception applies. Accordingly, the Motion in Limine is granted, in part, with regard to portions of the newspaper articles attributable to declarants other than the author.

Murphy v. City of Tulsa, Dist. Court, ND Oklahoma 2018

Worse, Christian scholars generally agree that Mark's gospel content includes more than merely "what Peter preached", which therefore screws up any hope Wallace had to pretend that only Peter is being represented in Mark's gospel. From my prior article:

Without doubt a close examination of Mark’s material will show that the evangelist did not simply write his Gospel based on his notes or memory of Peter’s teachings. The amazing similarity in language, style, and form of the Synoptic tradition between the Markan and non-Markan materials of Matthew and Luke (cf. John’s Gospel) hardly suggests that Mark’s materials were shaped by one man, be he either Peter or Mark.

Guelich, R. A. (2002). Vol. 34A: Word Biblical Commentary : Mark 1-8:26. 

Word Biblical Commentary (Page xxvii). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.

Even if Mark passed the ancient documents rule and all hearsay objections, what exactly in it that goes back to Mark, to Peter, to somebody's idea of a combination of both, or to otherwise unknown sources, is impossible to determine. 

And while I espouse Markan priority, the Christians who think Mark copied from Matthew (Matthean priority) make it even more difficult to pinpoint what in Mark's gospel is from Mark, from Peter, from Matthew, or from other sources.

It is not for nothing that I call Wallace's use of modern rules of evidence on the gospels, a "sales gimmick".   That's truly all that it is.  He is capitalizing on Christians who don't know jack shit about historiography or legal rules of evidence, and upon Christians who are utterly addicted to their computer.

Wallace continues:

Why should we consider his information to be reliable? There are several good reasons to believe Peter is the trustworthy source of information for Mark, beginning with the historical attributions of the early Church Fathers who affirm the relationship Mark and Peter had in the 1st Century.

Trustworthy?  Peter denied Christ several times after having allegedly seen him do real miracles to amazed crowds for three years, then he became a Judaizer (Galatians 2:12-14, "...how is is that you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews?")

Beyond this, however, there are additional evidences within Mark’s text supporting the claim Peter (Mark’s mentor in Rome) is the source for Mark’s information.

Doesn't matter, if the argument were that easy, you wouldn't find legitimate Christian scholars like Guelich, supra, scoffing at the notion that Peter is Mark's only source.

I’ve described the evidential case in much more detail in Cold-Case Christianity, but this brief summary may be helpful:

The Writing Style Is Consistent With Mark’s Background

The traditional view recognizes Mark as a Palestinian Jew who wrote his Gospel using Peter as his source. Most scholars believe the Gospel of Mark demonstrates a writing style and literary syntax exposing the author’s first language as something other than Greek. In fact, the writing style seems to indicate the author’s first language was probably a Semitic language such as Aramaic. This would be consistent with the idea Mark, a Palestinian Jew (who most likely spoke Aramaic) was the author of the Gospel. In addition to this, the Gospel of Mark includes a number of vivid and tangential details unnecessary to the narrative, but consistent with observations of an eyewitness to the events. This would indicate the author had access to an eyewitness such as Peter.

But there is also evidence against Peter's being a source is Mark's resurrection appearance narrative. 

First, Acts 1:1-3 has a risen Christ appearing to the apostles IN JERUSALEM over a period of 40 days, teaching things concerning the kingdom of God:

NAU  Acts 1:1 The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach,
 2 until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.
 3 To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.   (Acts 1:1-3 NAU)

 Second, nothing in Mark's resurrection appearance narrative expresses or implies any such thing as 40 days of resurrection appearances in Jerusalem:

 9 Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.
 10 She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping.
 11 When they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they refused to believe it.
 12 After that, He appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along on their way to the country.
 13 They went away and reported it to the others, but they did not believe them either.
 14 Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen.
 15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
 16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
 17 "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
 19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed . [And they promptly reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. (Mk. 16:9-20 NAU)

Had Peter experienced the 40-day Jerusalem appearances of Christ, we'd expect both that he'd relay the details to Mark, and that Mark would find the risen Christ's teachings on the kingdom of heaven equally as important, if not more so, than the same teachings Christ gave before the crucifixion.

"Impeachment by omission" is a recognized means of challenging a witness's credibility. "A statement from which there has been omitted a material assertion that would normally have been made and which is presently testified to may be considered a prior inconsistent statement." State v. Provet, 133 N.J.Super. 432, 437, 337 A.2d 374 (App.Div.), certif. denied, 68 N.J. 174, 343 A.2d 462 (1975); see also Silva, supra, 131 N.J. at 444-45, 621 A.2d 17; State v. Marks, 201 N.J.Super. 514, 531-32, 493 A.2d 596 (App. Div.1985), certif. denied, 102 N.J. 393, 508 A.2d 253 (1986). This principle is widely accepted. Jenkins v. Anderson, 447 U.S. 231, 239, 100 S.Ct. 2124, 2129, 65 L.Ed.2d 86, 95 (1980) ("Common law traditionally has allowed witnesses to be impeached by their previous failure to state a fact in circumstances in which that fact naturally would have been asserted."); Kenneth S. Broun, McCormick on Evidence § 34 (7th 784*784 ed. 2013) ("[I]f the prior statement omits a material fact presently testified to and it would have been natural to mention that fact in the prior statement, the statement is sufficiently inconsistent."); 3A Wigmore on Evidence § 1042 (Chadbourn rev. 1970) ("A failure to assert a fact, when it would have been natural to assert it, amounts in effect to an assertion of the non-existence of the fact.")

 from Manata v. Pereira, 93 A. 3d 774, 783-4- NJ: Appellate Div. 2014

Wallace continues:

The Outline of the Gospel Is Consistent With Peter’s Outline

Papias maintained the Gospel of Mark was simply a collection of Peter’s discourses (or his preaching) as this information was received and recalled by Mark. If we examine the typical preaching style of Peter in the Book of Acts (1:21-22 and Acts 10:37-41 for example) we see Peter always limited his preaching to the public life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. Mark’s Gospel omits the private birth narrative and other details of Jesus’ life described in the opening chapters of Luke and Matthew. Mark begins with the preaching of John the Baptist and ends with the resurrection and ascension, paralleling the public preaching of Peter as we see it summarized in the Book of Acts.

Unfortunately, none of the apostles in Acts merely quote Jesus verbatim and recall his specific miracles, strongly suggesting that Peter's preaching in Rome was akin to his preaching in Jerusalem.  He might make general references to to what Jesus said and did, but nothing nearly so verbatim as what we find in Mark's gospel.  You cannot argue that Peter didn't need to be specific about the details with the Jews that he witnessed to in Acts, who knew all about Jesus' public ministry, because Paul's preaching the Gentiles is also recorded in Acts, yet is equally bereft of verbatim quotes of Jesus (Acts 20:35 being merely an exception that proves the rule), consistent with the way he argues his actual points; Paul infamously hardly ever bases his teachings on things Jesus actually said or did, aside from dying for sin and rising from the dead (1st Cor 11:23-25 and 1st Timothy 5:18 are mere exceptions proving the rule).  Mark is at best an embellishment of the more generalized message the apostles originally preached.

The Omissions of the Gospel Are Consistent With Peter’s Influence

There are many details in the Gospel of Mark consistent with Peter’s special input and influence, including omissions related to events involving Peter. How can Mark be a memoir of Peter if, in fact, the book contains so many omissions of events involving Peter specifically? It’s important to evaluate the entire catalogue of omissions pertaining to Peter to understand the answer here. The vast majority of these omissions involve incidents in which Peter did or said something rash or embarrassing. It’s not surprising these details were omitted by the author who wanted to protect Peter’s standing in the Christian community. Mark was quite discreet in his retelling of the narrative (other Gospel writers who were present at the time do, however, provide details of Peters ‘indiscretions’ in their own accounts). Here are some examples of Petrine Omissions grounded in an effort to minimize embarrassment to Peter (see Cold-Case Christianity for a more detailed explanation of the events summarized here):

 Thank you for honestly admitting that the gospel authors sometimes attempted to spin an apostle to be more trustworthy than he was, by selectively omitting the more embarrassing episodes.  Whoever wrote Mark's gospel had more faith in the public's negative reaction, than in the power of the Holy Spirit to move through historical truth.

Since more than enough has been done here to destroy Wallace's bullshit legal case for Mark's authenticity, there is no need to reply to the rest of his article.

Snip...

There is sufficient cumulative, circumstantial evidence to conclude Mark did, in fact, form his Gospel from the teaching and preaching of the Apostle Peter. If this is the case, Mark’s Gospel was written within the lifetime of Mark (and likely within the lifetime of Peter). If the Gospel of Mark was written this early, it would have undergone the scrutiny of those who were actually present and could have exposed Mark as a liar:

2 Peter 1:16

We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty

 We have no idea under what circumstances Mark wrote, so cocky confidence about how Mark would have been subject to criticism and passed with flying colors is overstatement, something Christians apparently need to stay faithful, since the Holy Spirit wouldn't need to overstate the case like that to properly do his job of keeping Christians confident in the gospel.

Regardless, the quotation from Eusebius that Peter knew about, but refused to encourage, Mark's literary effort, is reasonably interpreted as Peter's belief that Mark was not reliable, which destroys Wallace's last point.

No, I do not wake up in the middle of the night in frightened shivers, wondering "what if atheism is wrong and hell is real!?"

Cold Case Christianity: The extent to which Mark relies on Peter's preaching can be reasonably doubted

This is my reply to an article by J. Warner Wallace entitled

Cold Case Christianity:
Mark’s Relationship With Peter Was the Foundation for His Gospel

Posted: 22 Aug 2018 01:35 AM PDT

The authorship of the New Testament Gospels has become a point of contention for many skeptics who deny the traditional attributions of Mark, Matthew or John.

Read any modern commentary on Mark written by a Christian scholar.  Christians are also having problems with the link between Mark and Peter.  Here's one evangelical Christian scholar who scoffs at the idea that Peter was the primary source of Mark:

Without doubt a close examination of Mark’s material will show that the evangelist did not simply write his Gospel based on his notes or memory of Peter’s teachings. The amazing similarity in language, style, and form of the Synoptic tradition between the Markan and non-Markan materials of Matthew and Luke (cf. John’s Gospel) hardly suggests that Mark’s materials were shaped by one man, be he either Peter or Mark.

Guelich, R. A. (2002). Vol. 34A: Word Biblical Commentary : Mark 1-8:26. 

Word Biblical Commentary (Page xxvii). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.

 With that kind of admission, the extent to which any particular passage in Mark constitutes a quotation from Peter is well-nigh impossible to resolve, thus justifying the skeptic to declare Mark's gospel inadmissible.

That is, if Wallace wishes to continue his farce of evaluating the gospels by the standard of modern American law; a trick he learned from Simon Greenleaf's similar 19th century effort.

Wallace, since you are so hot-to-trot about using American legal principles to evaluate the gospels, your inability to show exactly where Peter's input begins and ends in the Markan material, justifies excluding this "testimony" since we don't know whether something we read therein is from Peter, Mark, or other source Mark used, or something added by a later redactor. 

That later redactors can screw things up sufficiently to make it difficult to figure out what the original said, is clear from the controversy over the "long ending" of Mark.  It is likely a forgery, but it still managed to infect most of the manuscripts in a way sufficiently thorough as to enable a minority of Christian scholars today to make a cause for their authenticity that would sound convincing to somebody not already familiar with the evidence..

If you were being prosecuted for murder on the basis of a written affidavit of a now-dead person, whose various assertions about you and your crime were legitimately subject to the level of authorship and source controversy now plaguing Mark's gospel, you'd be screaming your head off that such affidavit is more prejudicial than probative for its tendency to confuse the jury on who exactly is making the assertions.  You'd be making a motion to have such affidavit rendered inadmissible.

Mark’s Gospel is of particular importance due to its early dating and relationship to the other Gospels. In spite of the fact Mark isn’t mentioned as an eyewitness in any of the Gospel accounts, there are many good reasons to accept his authorship and regard his Gospel as an accurate record of the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus. The repeated and unanimous testimony of the early Church describes Mark’s Gospel as an accurate record of Peter’s teaching, captured faithfully by Mark acting as Peter’s scribe.

 The early church was also unanimous that Matthew and Luke were written before Mark, a position you and most other Christian scholars now disagree with.  So apparently, "unanimous church tradition" isn't quite as powerful as you'd like the reader to believe.

Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius, and Tertullian attribute the Gospel to Mark, and Mark is also described as the author in the Muratorian Fragment and the Anti-Marcionite Prologues.

I don't have a problem with Mark writing the gospel.  I have a problem with the idea that any of his specific statements came from the mouth of Peter.  Here's one reason why:

Assuming, as most Christian scholars do, that Matthew used Mark as a source, why is Matthew's version of Peter's confession and Jesus' answer thereto, far longer than Mark's account?

Mark 8

Matthew 16

27 Jesus went out, along with His disciples, to the villages of Caesarea Philippi; and on the way He questioned His disciples, saying to them, "Who do people say that I am?"  28 They told Him, saying, "John the Baptist; and others say Elijah; but others, one of the prophets."   29 And He continued by questioning them, "But who do you say that I am?"  Peter answered and said to Him, "You are the Christ."   30 And He warned them to tell no one about Him.  31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"  14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."  15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"  16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."  17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.  18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.  19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."  20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.  21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.

 What's more likely?

That Peter also said "the son of the living God" part, yet Mark knowingly "chose to exclude" that part?

That Jesus replied with all the commentary seen in Matthew's account, but that Mark, knowing that was Jesus' full reply, knowingly "chose to exclude" this?

Or that Matthew, the later author, is creatively using fiction to embellish the earlier primitive tradition in ways that enhance the theological significance of this conversation between Peter and Jesus? 

Regardless of whether a Christian can show that they themselves can be reasonable to reject this theory, skeptics can be reasonable to conclude that if Mark knew Peter had said "the son of the Living God", Mark would never have "chosen to exclude" this.  So the more you credit Mark to Peter, the more you credit Peter with giving Mark an unbelievably shortened version of events.

Before we begin to look at some of the internal evidences for Peter’s connection to the Gospel of Mark, we ought to recognize Peter and Mark’s relationship as it is described in the New Testament. Mark is traditionally considered to be the “John Mark” mentioned as a companion of Paul in the Book of Acts. If this is true, Mark was a cousin of Barnabas (Colossians 4:10) and originally fell from favor with Paul when he failed to continue on an evangelistic journey with Paul and Barnabas as a young man. This caused the two older men to separate; Barnabas continued on with Mark and Paul continued with Silas (Acts 15:37-40).

 Correct, and the fact that Paul disqualified Mark from further ministry due to previously abandoning the mission work, continues to stand as legitimate impeachment against Mark's integrity.  That is, Mark may have authored a gospel and become involved in apostolic activities, but he regarded the whole business as something less than exciting or transforming, a bit of apathy we would hardly expect if any apostles he was running around with were doing any of the miracles the book of Acts ascribes to them (Acts 5::15, 8:13, 15:12).  Here's the Acts 15 story on why Paul discredited Mark from future mission work:

36 After some days Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us return and visit the brethren in every city in which we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are."
 37 Barnabas wanted to take John, called Mark, along with them also.
 38 But Paul kept insisting that they should not take him along who had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work.
 39 And there occurred such a sharp disagreement that they separated from one another, and Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus.
 40 But Paul chose Silas and left, being committed by the brethren to the grace of the Lord. (Acts 15:36-40 NAU)

Wallace continues:

Mark eventually became a close associate of Peter; this is evident in two pieces of Biblical evidence. First, it appears Peter was part of a Christian group in Jerusalem that met in Mark’s home. When Peter miraculously escaped from jail (assisted by the angel of the Lord), he returned to this group to tell them the good news:

Acts 12:12-14

When this had dawned on him, he went to the house of Mary the mother of John, also called Mark, where many people had gathered and were praying. Peter knocked at the outer entrance, and a servant girl named Rhoda came to answer the door. When she recognized Peter’s voice, she was so overjoyed she ran back without opening it and exclaimed, “Peter is at the door!”

 Which is precisely why Mark's failure to mention the Jerusalem resurrection appearances (Acts 1:1-3) is a silence that screams.  Had Mark been a true convert to the faith and was a close personal friend of Peter, it is highly unlikely that either

a) Peter would keep the Acts 1:3 resurrection appearances from Mark or
b) that Mark would know of them but choose to avoid mentioning them.

Mark's allegedly living in Jerusalem would make it reasonable to suspect that, if Acts 1:3 is telling the truth, Mark would both know about AND desire to mention these Jerusalem resurrection appearances.

Even if we allow everything desired by the minority of scholars who press for the authenticity of Mark's long ending, still, Mark's "long ending" doesn't mention anything about 40 days of resurrection appearances, still less anything about 40-days worth of kingdom-of-God teachings from the risen Christ,  when we'd rather suspect that Mark would think the risen Christ's teachings about the kingdom of God (Acts 1:3) were at least equally as important, if not more important, than the teachings on the same subject which Christ gave before dying (Mark 1-15).

Peter appears to have been well known to Mark, and over the course of time, Mark became even closer to Peter as he ministered throughout Asia Minor and Rome. By the time Peter wrote his first epistle, Mark had become like a son to him:

1 Peter 5:13

She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.

Mark was a common name, you don't really know whether the author traditionally associated with the gospel is the exact "Mark" mentioned in that epistle.  Critics can be reasonable to doubt this or call it inconclusive, whether you can conform the evidence to your own theory or not.

In fact, Mark’s relationship with Peter seems to parallel Luke’s relationship to Paul. Every time Paul mentions Luke, he also mentions Mark (see Colossians 4:10-14, 2 Timothy 4:11, and Philemon verse 24). Mark and Luke clearly knew each other, and this relationship as “co-Gospel authors” is consistent with Luke’s opening statement in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 1:1-4

Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.

 Except for one small problem:  Most Christian scholars say Luke used Mark's gospel as a textual source to some degree, but Luke gives the false impression in his Preface that he relied ONLY on "eyewitness" testimony, because he doesn't mention any other source except eyewitnesses.

Luke clearly describes himself as a careful investigator rather than a firsthand eyewitness to the life of Jesus. He also said he had access to the eyewitnesses and those who received the testimony of these witnesses.

 No, his preface does not express or imply that he had access to those who received the testimony of the eyewitnesses.  Even if such fact could be shown from other evidence, all that matters is what impression Luke intended to give about his sources.  We need not speculate why so many fundamentalist scholars continually talk about Luke interviewing "eyewitnesses".

This would, of course, have included Mark, a man with whom he obviously had repeated contact (according to Paul’s letters). Luke curiously described his account as being written “in consecutive order,” a meaningful statement when you consider what Papias said about Mark’s Gospel:

“Mark became Peter’s interpreter and wrote accurately all that he remembered, not, indeed, in order, of the things said and done by the Lord.”

 What you don't tell the reader is that other inerrantist Christian scholars discount the "consecutive order" or "chronological order" interpretation, in favor of one that says Luke was talking about writing in "logical" order:

To write an orderly account. The exact meaning of “orderly” is uncertain. It can refer to a temporal (Acts 3:24), geographical (18:23), or literary-logical sequence (11:4). The fact that Peter in 11:15 stated that the Spirit came upon Cornelius as he began to speak, whereas in 10:44–45 the Spirit came after Peter had spoken for some time, indicates that the “order” Luke was referring to was a logical rather than a chronological one.

Stein, R. H. (2001, c1992). Vol. 24: Luke (electronic ed.). Logos Library System;
The New American Commentary (Page 65). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

Wallace continues:

In the opening lines of his Gospel, Luke appears to be acknowledging Mark as a source who had direct contact with the eyewitnesses, distinguishing his Gospel from Mark’s on the basis of its orderly format.

 Sorry, Luke's preface says nothing about his alleged used of secondary sources.  And should you trifle that ancient historians might have viewed second-hand sources as having the same probative value as first-hand sources, your happiness about the "eyewitness" nature of the gospels must wane accordingly.  Or else your continuing to evaluate the gospels via the modern American court system will make it clear how you prioritize marketing Jesus above the less attractive scholarly truth.

In addition, Luke quotes Mark more than any other source, repeating or quoting entire passages offered by Mark (350 verses from Mark appear in Luke’s gospel).

Which is precisely why Luke's admission to using "eyewitnesses" as sources is so problematic.  If you got most of your story from second-hand sources, would you tell others that you relied on "eyewitnesses" and avoid mentioning you also used hearsay?  Hopefully not.

Luke recognized Mark’s relationship with Peter, much like his own with Paul, and considered Mark to be a reliable source.

Not true.  Mark 4:38 says:

 38 Jesus Himself was in the stern, asleep on the cushion; and they woke Him and said to Him, "Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?" (Mk. 4:38 NAU)

When Luke found this in Mark, he changed the disciple's reaction so it was less accusatory than the original:

 24 They came to Jesus and woke Him up, saying, "Master, Master, we are perishing!" And He got up and rebuked the wind and the surging waves, and they stopped, and it became calm. (Lk. 8:24 NAU)

You say Luke found Mark a reliable source?  Maybe that's why inerrantist Christian scholars admit Luke "toned down" Mark's apparently too-candid assertions:

The disciples’ question strongly rebukes Jesus and is another example of Mark’s candor, which Matt 8:25 and Luke 8:24 tone down.

Brooks, J. A. (2001, c1991). Vol. 23: Mark (electronic e.). Logos Library System;

The New American Commentary (Page 87). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

Wallace continues:

On the basis of the relationship between Mark and Peter, it is reasonable to conclude the testimony of history accurately describes Mark’s connection to the Apostle. Mark acted as a scribe for Peter and recorded his teaching and preaching in his Gospel.

 But on the basis of the counter-arguments I've given here, Mark's relationship to Peter would be moot even if all biblical descriptions of it were 100% accurate. 

Finally, that Mark is a record of Peter's preaching is suspicious in light of the fact that none of the apostles in Acts give their audiences even one Christ-saying that appears in the gospels, a matter wholly at odds with the idea that the numerous Christ sayings in Mark show us the content of Peter's preaching.

The same is true for Paul.  Despite the allegedly risen Christ saying the gospel to the Gentiles was the exact same thing he taught the original apostles (Matthew 28:20, the part of the Great Commission that most Christians forget), Paul clearly did not find the actual words of Jesus to be necessary to the gospel, contradicting the viewpoint on the subject held by all 4 gospel authors, who clearly think Jesus' actual words are an essential part of the Gentile gospel.

In conclusion, the hypothesis that Peter stated all of the things recorded in Mark's gospel, is absurd, and yet once it is granted that Mark used otherwise unknown sources beyond Peter, it becomes reasonable for critics to deny that Mark's gospel is "based" on "eyewitness" testimony.  

If you were prosecuted for murder in court on the basis of an affidavit that had as many source and authorship problems as Mark's gospel does, suddenly, you'd find the bible-skeptic's skepticism to be reasonable, and you'd scream your head off that such a problematic document cannot enable a jury to reasonably decide who said what, or to decide the necessary credibility issues.  You'd seek a court order declaring such affidavit inadmissible, and so do we. 

Or you can keep fantasizing that evaluating the gospels with modern American court rules is a fun way to exploit religion for profit.  Cool marketing gimmick?  Yes.  Convincing case?  Not in the least. 

Frank Turek's absurd belief in objective morality

 Christian apologist Frank Turek increased his popularity with his "Stealing from God" book that he supports with book-tours in which he attempts to argue that morals are objective, so since this requires an objective moral law giver, and atheism provides none, the existence of objective morals necessarily implies the existence of God, hence, atheism is false.


Turek says, in an article entitled Atheists have no basis for morality:

Monday night at UNC Wilmington, despite no cooperation from the school (see my last post), just over 200 people showed up for part 1 of I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist. 

Maybe god is punishing you for misrepresenting him and mistaking your marketing bells and whistles for the wooing of the Holy Spirit.  Just a thought.

Several atheists asked questions– actually made statements– and struggled greatly when I asked them to offer some objective basis for morality from their atheistic worldview. 

 Then they were not very educated about matters of morality.  You won't find the atheist writing at this blog to be struggling, to any degree, to answer your ridiculous questions and challenges.

For now, your question was illogically loaded.  The only reason to ask an atheist for an objective basis for morality, is because that atheist thinks morality does indeed have an objective basis.  Any such atheists are wrong.  If atheism is true, morality does not have an objective basis (i.e., a basis that transcends humanity).

Also, the fact that most humans are social mammals logically requires that they find unacceptable any acts that inhibit the thriving and surviving of the members.  Murder reduces the numbers of living things and deceases chances of thriving.  Rape increases the likelihood of additional children that were not planned and thus strain the group's resources.  Since no theory needs to be 100% perfect and explain every last little electron in the universe, the issue is not whether the naturalistic theory is comprehensive, but whether it is reasonable.  It is.  The naturalistic explanations for why most people find rape and murder to be immoral, are reasonable.  Merely calling them 'opinion' does nothing to show the theory unreasonable.  Some moist robots have an atomic configuration that motivates them to care about the survival of others.

On the other hand, the explanatory theory that says "God put his laws into our hearts" is beset by far worse shortcomings and fallacies:

What is the reason we cringe at the thought of burning teen prostitutes to death?  Because the god who required this in other cultures (Lev. 21:9) has put his laws into our hearts?  Or because the culture we are born and raised in can have a very profoundly strong impact in shaping our moral opinions?

Turek's explanation cannot point to any specific empirical evidence of a god putting his laws into our hearts, while the entire business smacks of telepathy and other foolishness that we know is bullshit.  At the same time, the naturalistic theory can point to the lower animal world, those who Turek agrees are not made in the image of god, and we find that those calibrated to care about survival of the group, do indeed also find murder and rape unacceptable.

What standard is Turek using to form his belief that rape is objectively evil?  It cannot be the bible or 'god', since Isaiah 13:16 would then have God causing men to rape women, that is, have God acting contrary to his own nature.

  They kept trying to give tests for how we know something is moral rather than why something is moral. 

That's easy.  Try the Constitutions and Laws of the country you were born in.  They reflect the moral outlook of the majority of the people. 

One atheist said “not harming people” is the standard.  But why is harming people wrong if there is no God? 

If you mean "objectively wrong", then harming people isn't wrong, because there is no objective standard governing the question of which human activities constitute immoral harm.  Furthermore, "harm" is subjective and requires analysis of context.  Doctors cause harm all the time, but most of us say this is justifiable because the harm creates a greater future good.  So it is the same in other areas of life. 

If you "subjectively wrong", then the wrongness of harming people does not go any further back than the human being who is calling it wrong, and perhaps the other human beings in the world who agree with him.  But again, that doesn't establish that the moral opinion is objective.

Another said, “happiness” is the basis for morality.  (After I asked him, “Happiness according to who, Mother Teresa or Hitler?,”  he said, “I need to think about this more,” and then sat down.) 

 Thus indicating that these atheists were woefully uneducated about the matters to justify pontificating about them as they tried.  

This says nothing about the intelligence of these people– there just is no good answer to the question.  

 Incorrect, you appear to have been addressing absolute dolts.  The reason you find a lot of people agreeing with you that morals have an objective basis that transcends humanity is because the vast majority of people have never taken an introductory course in moral philosophy.  You are dishonestly trading on their strong personal views and their ignorance.  Your problem is that the naturalistic explanation for most humans in history agreeing certain acts are immoral, reasonably accounts for all the empirical data, at which point, there is no compelling "need" to invoke god to explain it.

Most humans are social animals who desire the company and fellowship of other humans.  Since unrestrained murder and rape would clearly hamper the human's instinctive goal to both survive and thrive, it is instinctive for humans to view murder and rape as unacceptable behavior.   You don't think the insects are made in the image of god, yet the social insects like wasps will attack you if you do thinks to disrupt their social goals, such as throwing dirt clods at wasp-nests.  The same is true for most of the higher order mammals.  Anything that inhibits their ability to survive or thrive as a group, is automatically deemed unacceptable and deserving of suppression.

You cannot avoid this rebuttal by doing what you do best, and pretending that an endless series of "but how do you know that?" will help you save face. Humans are instinctive social animals, so that is quite sufficient to explain why those who desire most to live in groups agree that things like rape and murder are unacceptable.  Questions about how humans were created, etc, are another topic.

Without God there is no basis for objective morals. 

Correct.  That doesn't mean subjective morals cannot exist.  There is no proving to another person that the subjective morals of modern-day America are "better". All we can say is that if you act contrary to those morals, you will be put in jail or killed. 

And God himself in Genesis 6:6-7 must have come to feel that his prior decision to create mankind was immoral, or else he wouldn't have "regretted" doing so.  No, Turek, there is nothing in the grammar, immediate context, larger context or genre of Genesis 6 to suggest that this oassage is an "anthropomorphism", so it is reasonable to take it equally as literally as the other events in the context.  In that case, your own God contradicts his own morals, since it was HE who created mankind, and HE who later discovered that said creative act was immoral.  If God didn't think creating man was immoral, what does it mean to say God "regretted" making mankind?  If you think your prior decision was morally good, could you ever "regret" it?  No, not unless you start thinking that decision wasn't as good as you had first thought. 

And Christians must be without god, because they are often dogmatic in their moral disagreements with one another:

• Does the Christian god think it morally good for a Christian adult to join a worldly military?  How long must the atheist analyze this in-house debate among Christians, before they are justified in drawing the conclusion that there is no objective moral law governing the question?  2 weeks?  20 years?
• Does the Christian god think it morally good for voluntary abortion to end a pregnancy caused by rape?  How long must the atheist analyze this in-house debate among Christians, before they are justified in drawing the conclusion that there is no objective moral law governing the question?  2 weeks?  20 years?
• Does the Christian god think it morally god for married Christian couples to use condoms?  How long must the atheist analyze this in-house debate among Christians, before they are justified in drawing the conclusion that there is no objective moral law governing the question?  2 weeks?  20 years?
• Is corporal punishment of kids morally good?  How do you know what level of non-lethal pain is the maximum that objective goodness will allow?   Why would Proverbs 22:15 and other passages require striking kids with a "rod", if the level of force it is talking about would not produce any more pain or injury than what could be produced by the "tap" of an open hand that so many Christians think is the limit?  Proverbs 20:30 has only good things to say about beatings that produce bruises, and contrary to popular belief, "immediate context" does not always prevail when dealing with Proverbs.  While some commentators try to get away from a moral nightmare by pretending that the "immediate context" of Proverbs 20:30 restricts that passage to mere judicial beatings of adults in criminal courts:

20:30 In context this is not parental discipline but beatings administered by the king’s officers as punishment for crime. Yahweh can peer directly into a person’s innermost being (v. 27), but the king can touch the criminal’s soul by harsh retribution.

Garrett, D. A. (2001, c1993). Vol. 14: Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of songs (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (Page 179). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

 Other equally Christian scholars maintain that the way different Proverbs about different matters are often strung together, you cannot limit what one of them is talking about by appeal to "immediate context":

With the book of Proverbs one can select at random a single verse or two and observe a complete unity of thought in them that may not have any real connection with what precedes or follows. Yet this does not hinder interpretation of its meaning

 Ardel B. Caneday, Qoheleth: Enigmatic Pessimist Or Godly Sage?, 
GTJ—V7-#1—Spr 86—31

• And if Proverbs 20:30 is extolling the goodness of the criminal receiving bruises and welts from the corporal punishment inflicted by a court....do you agree that human courts achieve objective moral good by physically beating convicted criminals, yes or no?  Or did you suddenly discover that god's objective biblical morals don't apply if the culture in question is too different from the biblical culture?  Sound like cultural relativism to me.
• How do you know that vigilante justice is objectively immoral, given that Peter in Acts 5:29 appears to have found an exception to Romans 13?  If there are pacifist exceptions to Romans 13 wherein you can safely disregard worldly law, then how do you know that pacifist exceptions are the only types that exist?  How do you know where to draw the line?  What makes you so sure that God doesn't wish to act through you personally to murder the convicted and self-confessed pedophile living locally in your neighborhood?  Before you answer, ask how many tears you'd shed if you found that this man was found gunned down in a ditch earlier this morning.  You won't exactly be clearing your schedule just to make time to attend his funeral, amen?  And your own bible requires that the person who murdered the pedophile was doing the will of God regardless of how the death was actually achieved (Deut. 32:39, Job 14:5). 
• Is it morally good to torture babies to death?  If not, then you must think your god once violated his own objective morals in torturing to death the baby born to King David and Bathsheba:

  13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die.
 14 "However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die."
 15 So Nathan went to his house. Then the LORD struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David, so that he was very sick.
 16 David therefore inquired of God for the child; and David fasted and went and lay all night on the ground.
 17 The elders of his household stood beside him in order to raise him up from the ground, but he was unwilling and would not eat food with them.
 18 Then it happened on the seventh day that the child died.  (2 Sam. 12:13-18 NAU)

The baby obviously wasn't "deserving" of this torture, and yet v. 18 indicates the torture lasted for seven days.  Oh, did I forget?  This doesn't even qualify as the child being punished for the sins of the father.  Before the child was stuck by God, Nathan the prophet said God had "taken away" David's sins (v. 13).  God's torture of the baby cannot be considered "punishment" in any way, since the "taking away" obviously operated to exempt David himself from the death penalty required for adultery and murder.

• If God really is the author of all murder and death (Deut. 32:39) and has set a specific number of days for each human to live, a number they cannot increase or decrease (Job 14:5), then how can you say murder is immoral?  If a man pulls out a gun and shoots the Christian bank teller dead, this is also God calling that bank teller home...it is not limited to the earthly perspective of "murder".  if those bible passages are true, you are calling God's own actions objectively immoral when you call murder immoral.  How long must the atheist analyze this in-house debate among Christians, before they are justified in drawing the conclusion that there is no objective moral law governing the question?  2 weeks?  20 years?
• Does god approve of a legislature taking the death penalty, usually applicable only to murder, and extending it to other crimes such as child rape?  Not a few people were angered when a man who nearly fatally raped his daughter, escaped Louisiana's death penalty for that crime when the US Supreme Court found such law to be cruel and unusual. 
• Does God think it is moral or immoral that America's courts have a general rule generally excluding hearsay?  The fact that most of the bible is in hearsay form and allegedly comes from God, requires that the answer is "immoral".  Yet if Christians were to start a movement to overturn the court rule banning hearsay, it would likely trigger a legal war that would produce various degrees of harmful collateral damage, such as wronged Plaintiffs preferring to take the law into their own hands instead of having the matter adjudicated in a court that foolishly allows hearsay.
• If rape is objectively immoral, why does God claim responsibility for causing men to rape women in Isaiah 13:16?  Even conservative Christian commentators admit God was "taking responsibility" for these and other atrocities in the immediate context, such as beating children to death:

 13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the LORD of hosts In the day of His burning anger.
 14 And it will be that like a hunted gazelle, Or like sheep with none to gather them, They will each turn to his own people, And each one flee to his own land.
 15 Anyone who is found will be thrust through, And anyone who is captured will fall by the sword.
 16 Their little ones also will be dashed to pieces Before their eyes; Their houses will be plundered And their wives ravished.
 17 Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them, Who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold.
 18 And their bows will mow down the young men, They will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb, Nor will their eye pity children.   (Isa. 13:13-18 NAU)

17–18 As the macabre scene resulting from the cosmic quake passes, the finger points to historical movement. Yahweh calls attention to stirrings among the feared Medes for which He claims responsibility.

Watts, J. D. W. (2002). Vol. 24: Word Biblical Commentary : Isaiah 1-33.
Word Biblical Commentary (Page 198). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.

What now, Turek?  Do atheist bible critics have an intellectual obligation to study the convoluted tortured reasonings of Christianity's 500-year old in-house Calvinist-Arminian debate on the biblical extent of God's sovereignty (or the 1500 year old Augustinian/Pelagian debate),  before they can be justified to draw conclusions here?  If so, how long must the atheist study such debates before they can justifiably draw conclusions about it?  2 weeks?  20 years?

And don't forget, Turek:  Calvinists are Christians who say the bible teaches that God secretly wills for us to violate his revealed will:

If someone disobeys God's revealed will, that's because God "secretly" willed them to disobey his revealed will. (Steve Hays, from Triablogue)

• When we jaywalk, would it be objectively morally good to consider this sufficient to prove us guilty of murder?  Before you balk at the stupidity of such a suggestion, read James 2:10-11 for the first time in your life, and ask yourself how feverishly stupid it would be to try and make such careless sophistry apply in real-world situations:

 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
 11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. (Jas. 2:10-11 NAU)

Then tell yourself that such sophistry does apply in the allegedly real-world situation of your guilt before god.  Then tell yourself that the only people who are allowed to invoke the mysterious ways of God to get their asses out of a theological jam are Trinitarian bible-inerrancy-believing evangelical Protestants.

It is reasonable to expect that if the Christian god exists and has imposed 'objective' morals on humanity, he would not remain so silent and hidden from his own genuine seekers, as to facilitate such moral division among genuinely born-again Christians.  One reasonable conclusion is that Christians who read the same basic bible and hold the same theological tenets always disagree about moral issues they find to be "important" because there is no objective moral law giver.

It’s just Mother Teresa’s opinion against Hitler’s. 

 That's exactly right.  Most citizens of most countries are civilized and have common sense.  Nation would not likely rise against nation in war if knowing which morals come from God was the pre-skool matter that Turek pretends it to be.

The atheists’ responses to the cosmological and design arguments– the arguments that show us that the universe exploded into being out of nothing and did so with amazing design and precision– were “we don’t know how that happened.”

 Once again, you capitalize unfairly on ignorant atheists.  That would be like the atheist concluding Christianity is false because of all the stupidity he can find in a KJV Only Pentecostal church that allows its members to play with live rattlesnakes.  Stop pretending that defeating an ignorant atheist means defeating atheism.  It is illogical.

As far as the cosmological arguments, Turek has a serious problem:  Genesis 1 and 2  would NEVER have caused its originally intended pre-scientific audience to think the "beginning" started with an explosion, as nothing therein is expressed or even implied.  Nothing could be a more flagrant example of eisogesis than Truek reading modern science's big-bang theory into Genesis 1-2.  He may as well read macro-evolution into it as well.  Not only does the Big Bang contradict Genesis 1 and 2 (which set forth God's work as the result of a carpenter or artist), plenty of conservative bible-inerrancy-believing creationist Christians agree the BB is bullshit, such as Institute for Creation Research.

Now Turek cannot say it is the blinders of atheism and rebellion toward god that cause an atheist to be blind to the Big Bang in Genesis 1 and 2, unless he wishes to accuse his own born-again Christian brothers of being atheists.

   This is simply an evasion of the evidence that clearly points to an eternal, immaterial, powerful, intelligent, personal and moral First Cause of the universe.   Since nature itself was created, this Cause must be beyond nature or “supernatural.”

Sorry, the arguments for the universe being created, are unpersuasive to say the least, while the evidence that the field of planets and stars extends infinitely in all directions is rather clear from the fact that astronomers continue increasing their estimate of the number of stars with each passing decade:  "There are a dizzying 2 trillion galaxies in the universe, up to 20 times more than previously thought, astronomers reported on Thursday."

Even astronomers who disagree with the infinite-space model agree it is at least possible, and that's a serious problem for the lemon-head apologists who want us to think an infinite universe model is "illogical" or otherwise not a valid option:

GREENFIELDBOYCE: So it goes on, but is it infinite? Chuck Bennett is an astrophysicist at Johns Hopkins University.  

CHUCK BENNETT: It is somewhat unimaginable, but quite possible that our universe simply goes on forever.

The issue is not which cosmological theory is "true", that is a child's approach.  The issue is whether theories of the universe that make it harder for you to "prove god" can be reasonable.  They can.  It isn't like the infinite universe model is on the order of flat-earth or ancient astronauts.

I end with a challenge to the stupid fundamentalists who believe hell's fire is more literal than symbolic, and who deny any possibility of second chances for those who die after knowingly rejecting the gospel:


Suppose you are the parent of a 10 year old girl who hasn't actually believed the gospel just yet, she simply goes through the motions like so many other kids.  She is invited to a church that promotes whatever  specific doctrinal bullshit you consider minimally necessary to true orthodoxy.   She goes, they tell her the true gospel, they ask if she wants to repent, she says no, and on the way home, while having no personal faith in Christ, dies in a car accident.  That is, she died immediately after knowingly refusing to obey the revealed gospel.  God then shows you a vision of her being tormented by the flames of hell, and tells you this torture will go on for all eternity, because God thinks 10 years old is the age of accountability for that particular child.

Suppose every time you attend church thereafter and sing songs about God's eternal 'love', God puts this vision of your daughter's real, current, irreversible and eternal suffering into your mind.  Your daughter is screaming in mindless agony in this torture-by-fire WHILE you are smiling and happily clapping your hands in church to songs about about the wonderfully comforting love of the God who is, at the same time, torturing your child.

Could you continue worshiping God in good conscience if you had that much precise information about the ultimate fate of a deceased child?

Or did you suddenly discover that the biggest problem in your life right now can be solved by suddenly discovering that the age of accountability is 37?

How to make all these problems disappear in one fell swoop?  Become an open theist.