Monday, June 25, 2018

My answer to Matthew Flannagan's First Challenge of Moral Relativism

This is my reply to an article by Christian philosopher Matthew Flannagan entitled



This post is the first of a series of posts which reproduce a talk on Moral Relativism I gave at both the Auckland and Tauranga  Confident Christianity Conference's and was given earlier in the year as part at a series of talks on apologetics at Orewa Community Church.

In moral debates about you will hear slogans like “if you don’t like abortion don’t have one?” Or “if you don’t like pornography don’t watch it” the basic idea is that if you think a particular action is morally wrong, then you shouldn’t do it, however, it is mistaken or inappropriate to claim that people who don’t share your opinion shouldn’t do it. The slogans in question assume that moral principles correctly apply only to people who believe in those principles.
Yes, but only in the sense that the subjective morals of the speaker apply.  When somebody says "if you don't like porn, don't watch it", all they are doing is imposing their own personal morals on you.  They are neither expressing nor implying that they can either prove your own morals to be objectively "wrong", or that they derived this specific "if you don't like porn, don't watch it" morality from some objective or absolute source.
The pervasiveness of this kind of thinking can be seen in a media report I watched several years ago. A pornographer relativism-1had organised a festival on the main street of Auckland, called boobs on bikes. It involved people, including topless women, riding down Queenstreet displaying erotica. There was some controversy over this event. During the media, coverage journalist's interviewed several people present to watch the event about what they thought. And what was interesting was how many people responded by saying something like this "It is the 21st century” or “we live in a liberal society”.
I agree with most Christians that yes, those who don't believe in god can get irrationally extreme in their actions and attempts to influence society to keep pushing the moral envelope.
Notice what happens when people do this, they were asked whether a particular action or policy was right or wrong. They answered by appealing to what they perceived to be currently fashionable or conventionally accepted.  The assumption is that whats right or wrong is determined by what is conventionally accepted or fashionable.
But that is the basis for all civilized law, at least in a democracy.  Anything that 51% of the voting public deem morally good, becomes law.  If 51% of the people of New Zealand feel that abortion should be made legal for all women, that will become law.  And yet this could reasonably be boiled down to "what's conventionally accepted or fashionable".  The fact that there are those who take positions that are far to the right or left extreme of the currently prevailing consensus, might cause us to instinctively reject the new morality, but that hardly implies that we had any objective basis underlying the older morality in the first place.
These responses reflect a position called Relativism by moral philosophers.  In a bestselling book. The Closing of the American Mind. The prominent philosopher Alan Bloom opened by saying:
There is one thing a professor can be certain absolutely of: almost every student entering the university believes, or says he believes, that truth is relative.
That's understandable, as humans we automatically favor the morality that works for us, and that takes place long before and sometimes in perpetual absence of any ability to defend it against criticism.  We need to adopt some type of morality between birth and adulthood in order to survive, yet we don't need to know how to defend it from criticism in order to survive.  The fact that professional philosophers disagree amongst themselves on whether objective morals exist, counsels that we not judge too harshly the young adults cannot defend their beleifs about the subject as they enter college.
If this belief is put to the test, one can count on the students' reaction: they will be uncomprehending. That anyone should regard the proposition as not self-evident astonishes them, as though he were calling into question 2 + 2 = 4.
That's how evolution programmed us.  We naturally prioritize whatever moral system we personally find to facilitate our comfort and growth.  If everybody held off adopting any morality until they learned how to defend their moral choices from criticism, most wouldn't stay alive long enough to encounter said criticism.
These are things you don't think about. The students' backgrounds are as various as America can provide. Some are religious, some atheists; some are to the Left, some to the Right; some intend to be scientists, some humanists or professionals or businessmen; some are poor, some rich. They are unified only in their relativism and in their allegiance to equality. And the two are related in a moral intention. The relativity of truth is not a theoretical insight but a moral postulate, the condition of a free society, or so they see it.
Strawman...you were talking about the relativity of morality.  Now you are talking about the relativity of truth. But the imposition of one's relative moral upon another does not logically have any relation to "truth".  A father's imposition of a 9 p.m. bedtime on his young son on a school night is a completely relative moral, there is nothing in the bible, natural theology or the physical world or the moral intuition held by most civilized educated adults that tells parents kids must go to bed on a school night at any certain time.  The only "truth" implicated by this situation is the "truth" that Dad has laid down a subjective moral that the child is required to obey.  That is the objectivist's basic problem:  the category error of trying to associate with morals with truths that exist outside the human mind.  You may as well try to meaningfully discuss what's north of the number 4.

Though I don't deny that in your group of moral relativist university students, yes, some of them probably did buy into that new age crap that says a fact of reality can be true for one person, but be untrue for another person.  
They have all been equipped with this framework early on, and it is the modern replacement for the inalienable natural rights that used to be the traditional American grounds for a free society.
But those inalienable natural rights only came from the subjective mindset of America's founders, and those views were obviously not shared by the King of England, from whom we fled in order to form a more perfect union.
That it is a moral issue for students is revealed by the character of their response when challenged - a combination of disbelief and indignation: "Are you an absolutist?," the only alternative they know, uttered in the same tone as "Are you a monarchist?" or "Do you believe in witches?" This latter leads into the indignation, for someone who believes in witches might well be a witch-hunter or a Salem judge. The danger they have been taught to fear from absolutism is not error but intolerance.
Probably has more to do with their being young adults and thus naturally predisposed to hate anything that tries to put a damper on their free expression...including somebody else's belief that morals are objective.
Relativism is necessary to openness; and this is the virtue, the only virtue, which all primary education for more than fifty years has dedicated itself to inculcating.
I would agree that from the standpoint of keeping order in society, there are larger issues to consider in the education of children than simply whether we inculcate a sense of openness and toleration.   Even the liberals have their limits: they love to criminalize and otherwise repress certain forms of free speech such as racism and discrimination based on religion, gender or race.  Only the stupid unthinking liberal says all views should be equally allowed.  All that would do is create a rat's nest of social chaos.
Openness - and the relativism that makes it the only plausible stance in the face of various claims to truth and various ways of life and kinds of human beings - is the great insight of our times. The true believer is the real danger.
That's correct.  If you get it in your head that God wants you to bomb an abortion clinic, you won't be any more easily dissuaded from doing it than Christian apologists can be dissuaded from Christianity.   By battling against "true believers", we significantly reduce the possibility that some religious person will start thinking that measures which harm society are the will of God.
The study of history and of culture teaches that all the world was mad in the past; men always thought they were right, and that led to wars, persecutions, slavery, xenophobia, racism and chauvinism.
Would any fool disagree with this assessment?
The point is not to correct the mistakes and really be right; rather it is not to think you are right at all. (Bloom 1987)
Bloom was beginning a scathing critique of what is often called moral relativism. Note that Bloom mentions students entering university. One reason for this is that relativism is not a common position in contemporary philosophy or ethics, and most philosophers I know of think it is pretty clearly a mistaken position.
Then direct them to my blog, and I'll be happy to correct their mistaken view that any moral could possibly be "objective" or "absolute".
However, it is extremely common at the popular level.  Because relativism is is an important challenge to Christian ethics it is important to reflect on how Christians respond to this challenge.
Not so fast.  Your Christian faith requires that you prioritize your conformity to biblical teaching, above your opinion that moral relativism needs to be publicly refuted.  It doesn't matter if the bible authorizes you to do apologetics.  There are also passages that forbid you from wrangling words:
 14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. (2 Tim. 2:14 NAU)
 Yet you obviously could not do a very good job of refuting relativism unless you fought a moral relativist upon the precise meaning of words.  No, you cannot negate the full import of this passage with others like Jude 4.  First, that would be the fallacy of employing inerrancy as a hermeneutic (i.e., you trash an otherwise contextually justified interpretation of "don't wrangle words" because you are sure this interpretation could contradict something taught elsewhere in the bible).  Well excuse me, but because inerrancy is hotly debated even among inerrantists, with most Christian scholars denying it outright,  it seems it does not deserve to be exalted in our minds to the status of governing hermeneutic, thus it would be more prudent to avoid using it as a hermeneutic until there is as much universal agreement on it as we have for other tools of interpretation, such as "context" and "grammar", whose benefits no sane person denies.

Second, even if you insist on harmonizing "don't wrangle words" with "defend the faith!", the most plausible harmony would be that you defend the faith without wrangling words.  Sure, you might think that a defense that doesn't attack the heretic's reasons, is rather weak, but that is your problem:  your desire to prove wrong each basis the heretic or moral relativist has, might indeed be a better idea, but like I said, you are a Christian first.  You need to worry about conforming yourself to your own bible before you worry about launching a war of words against positions you disagree with.

Third, no, Dr. Flannagan, you cannot use "But Jesus and Paul had verbal wars with their own critics, and Christians must follow their example!" to get away from "don't wrangle words".  Common sense says that commands which are directed specifically to the Christians, take precedence over the more subjective controversial matter of whether we should do something merely because Jesus and Paul did it.  And if Jesus and Paul wrangled words with their critics, that appears to contradict "do not wrangle words", and only an inerrantist would choose to expend energy trying to harmonize this "alleged" contradiction.

Fourth,  given that inerrancy doesn't qualify as a hermeneutic, it is pretty safe to say that the pastorals, if written by Paul, were written in his old age, just before execution, and therefore it is highly likely that at this point in his life he looked back on all the verbal wars he initiated with the Jews about Christ being predicted in the OT (Acts 17:2-3, 17,  18:19, etc) and had concluded, even if he didn't expressly state it, that all this wrangling of words was useless and only did more to ruin than rehabilitate the hearers.

Finally, Paul's own example included times when he would skip town after discovering he was in over his intellectual head, such as his quickly skipping town after he discovered the philosopher's at Mar's Hill didn't find his presentation the least bit threatening.  Upon their laughter at the resurrection, Paul leaves (Acts 17:32-33).  Sorry, Dr. Flannagan, but I've written a comprehensive article showing that the warnings against debate in the pastorals, when properly interpreted, do indeed condemn 99% of all scholarly Christian efforts to refute concepts which the Christian scholars themselves deem "foolish and ignorant speculations".

Dr. Flannagan, do you think moral relativism is a foolish and ignorant speculation?  Then you are commanded to turn away from anybody who advocates it:
 23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
 24 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. (2 Tim. 2:23-26 NAU)
No, Dr. Flannagan, you cannot get around the prohibition in v. 23 by noting that v. 24 ff require the Lord's bondservant to patiently teach those who are in error.  If you are an inerrantist, then you should reconcile v. 23 which what follows by saying you are to correct those who are in error without wrangling words.  You will say this calls for rather weak argument, but unfortunately, Paul's idea of correction had everything to do with the blind presumption that he was right, end of discussion, and nothing to do with scholarly consideration of the heretic's actual arguments.  When you are correcting those who are in error, you do so by warning them no more than twice, and you stay away from them if they don't acquiesce to Paul's viewpoint by the second warning:
  9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.  (Tit. 3:9-11 NAU)
When you correct others, you do not engage in scholarly analysis of their various reasons for taking the position they do...instead you warn them.  Sorry, but Paul's idea of correcting error did not involve comprehensive analysis of the errant person's actual arguments.  You don't analyze another's argument by warning them. 

Flannagan continues:
    Relativism vs Objectivism: understanding the issues:

Christian’s, like Muslims and Jews, believe God has issued commands to human beings, and our moral duties are related to these commands.
And because moral relativism is true, Christians are divided on what exact moral duties anybody has under god.

No, Dr. Flannagan, you don't refute that point merely by saying Christian disagreement doesn't automatically falsify moral objectivism.  That's technically correct, but irrelevant in practical life.  The relativists are given nothing to worry about by your simply noting that objective morals could still exist despite Christians constantly disagreeing with each other about the matter.  So put your money where your mouth is: state clearly a specific moral proposition, and explain the reasons why you think it to be objective.  Stop sitting on the sidelines reminding us that no amount of in-house Christian debate necessarily disproves Christianity.
However, or not God exists or issues commands doesn’t depend on whether we think he does.
That's technically true.  But under that logic, whether or not the tooth-fairy exists or issues commands doesn't depend on whether we think she does.

You are wasting time with such technicalities. Give us the one moral proposition you believe to be the more clearly objective in its nature.
If God created the world, then this is a fact that occurred well before we were born and my believing or not believing it makes no difference to whether it occurred.
And if the tooth-fairy gave neanderthals money for teeth back in 150,000 b.c., then this is a fact that occurred well before we were born and my believing or not believing it makes no difference to whether it occurred.  I remind you to stop chanting about technicalities from the sidelines.  Get in the ring and put up your dukes.

If God did not create the world, hoping and wishing he has doesn't make the past change.
 If the tooth-fairy didn't give money to neaderthals for their teeth, hoping and wishing she would have, doesn't make the past change.
The same is true of God’s commanding, if God has issued commands then this is a fact, people may disagree with what he demands, but this disagreement doesn’t make any difference to whether the commands exist.
 That's a pretty big "if".  Go ahead...state the one moral command of God which you believe to be the one most clearly objective.  

And you are avoiding the whole purpose of debate.  The technicality that commands of God could still be real despite people disagreeing on the matter, is irrelevant to the practical goal of proving the moral relativist wrong.  We could agree with you on the technicality and that would still not give you the upper hand in the debate.  Now provide the most clearly objective moral you can think of, and your reasons for saying it is objective.
To illustrate the point here, return to the slogan I opened this talk with. Suppose someone was contemplating jumping off the sky tower. You responded “if you do that you’ll die” only to get the response. ‘Who are you to impose your belief in the law of gravity onto me?” I doubt anyone would be impressed by this response.
That's because no sane person denies the obvious scientific truth that gravity exists.  But assuring a jumper of the fatal effects of his intended actions, is a far cry from "adultery is objectively immoral".  Gravity's existence is far more empirically demonstrable than are "objective morals", even if not everything about gravity is known.  Gravity is subject to scientific testing and successful repeated predictions, it has far more an objective basis than does your own belief that adultery is objectively immoral.  Sorry Dr. Flannagan, but you are comparing apples to radio waves.
Whether or not the laws of gravity exist doesn’t depend on whether you believe it.
 I'll respond one last time to your time-wasting chants:  Whether the tooth-fairy exists doesn't depend on whether you believe it.  
Gods moral laws don’t differ from the laws or decrees by which he governs the universe. They either exist or they don’t.
 Ok...well...we are still waiting for you to state the specific moral proposition whose objective nature you believe to be the most clearly demonstrable.
This means that Christians are objectivists about morality. Objectivism holds that: certain moral standards are correct independently of whether you, I or our society believe they are or accept that they are.
 Yup, that's what Christian objectivism is, alright.  Now then, state the one moral proposition you believe is most clearly "objective along with your reasons for saying it is objective.
Some moral principles apply to people regardless of whether they choose to accept these principles, and if people do not accept these principles, they are making a mistake.
Yup, that's what Christian objectivists say alright.  Now then, state the one moral proposition you believe is most clearly "objective" along with your reasons for saying it is objective.
By contrast, relativists hold that moral hold that all moral judgements are correct or incorrect relative to different cultures or individuals. 
 That's correct. That's exactly why you are wrong in your prior statements to the effect that relativists are contradicting their own relativism by saying another's morals are "wrong".   I don't have to prove that my son's disobeying my imposed bedtime for him on a school night is objectively immoral, in order to reasonably characterize that rebellion as "wrong".  Not everything human beings say is "wrong" necessarily commits them to an objective standard.  I could tell my wife "adultery would be good for our marriage", she would scream "wrong!", but upon analysis, it would be proven that all she meant was that my proposal was a moral matter she disagreed with for personal reasons.

See my answer to Dr. Flannagan's second installment here.

Friday, June 22, 2018

My reply and challenge to Matthew Flannagan's objective morality, the baby-torture enigma, again

This is my reply to an article by Christian philosopher Matthew Flannagan entitled





While this post contains my direct challenge, I've also answered Flannagan point-by-point in each of his Challenge of Moral Relativism posts.  See answer to post 1, answer to post 2, answer to post 3.

I am strongly suspicious that Flannagan will do what he has done before, and what he is very good at...and escape answering my criticism on the merits, all because he thinks my reply is "off-topic".

But I've already called him on the carpet for this tactic.  I said:
I have a two-part response: a) you continue evading my most powerful rebuttal to you, and b) a request on how can I present you with my own scholarly rebuttals of your Christian beliefs in a way that doesn’t constitute me “changing the subject” or “evading the issue”...Second, I would like to know how I might go about presenting you with my criticism of bible inerrancy and my criticism of the Genocide book you co-authored by Copan, and present such in a way that doesn’t constitute my “changing the subject” or “evading” an issue.
 Flannagan did not specify how I might communicate to him certain challenges that would, in his opinion, technically go "off-topic" from a blog post he wrote.  Therefore he can hardly complain that I posted a strong rebuttal to his moral objectivism, in reply to his blog post wherein he asserts his belief in moral objectivism.

I told him before that under his criteria for what's off-topic, I'd be going "off-topic" if I wrote about green apples in reply to a post from him about red apples.  After all, he didn't raise the subject of green apples in his blog post, so discussion of green apples constitutes my "evasion" of the issue, amen?

(!?)

If Flannagan wishes to set forth any such trifling bullshit, let him remember Jesus who rebuked the Pharisees for focusing so much on technicalities that they ignored the more important stuff:
 23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. (Matt. 23:23 NAU)
Conservative inerrantist Christian scholar Craig Blomberg explains:

In the first two the Pharisees and scribes have misjudged priorities in God’s world; in the third and fourth they misjudge priorities in God’s Word. Minor matters are overly elevated; major ones are neglected. The former category includes tithing, even down to small herbs (“mint, dill and cummin”; cf. Lev 27:30). In the latter category appear “justice, mercy, and faithfulness.”…Christians in many ages have done a remarkable job of majoring on minors and minoring on majors. A scandal of the contemporary church is its unparalleled fragmentation into hundreds of denominations and groupings. Many of these divisions have been over issues nonessential to salvation. True Christians must stand uncompromisingly against all professing believers who promote teaching which, if embraced, would prevent people from being saved (Gal 1–2) but must bend over backwards to get along and cooperate with those who differ on doctrines that do not affect a person’s salvation (1 Cor 9:19–23). Otherwise our disunity seriously undermines Christian witness before a watching world.
Blomberg, C. (2001, c1992). Vol. 22: Matthew (electronic ed.).
Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (Page 345).
Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

So even if my reply to Flannagan was technically "off-topic", doesn't prudence and wisdom counsel that Flannagan prioritize replying to my challenge as somewhat more important than the earth-shattering debauchery of going "off-topic"?

I cross-post here the reply I posted to Flannagan's blog, linked above:
--------beginquote----------------



1 response so far ↓
Barry
Jun 23, 2018 at 8:48 am

Matt said:

“This means that Christians are objectivists about morality. Objectivism holds that: certain moral standards are correct independently of whether you, I or our society believe they are or accept that they are.”



If that is true, then you should be able to establish the correctness of the proposition

“torturing babies to death solely for entertainment purposes is objectively immoral”

WITHOUT relying on what anybody else “believes or accepts” about that subject.

Indeed, the dictionaries tell us that “objective” means
 
So go ahead…demonstrate that that the proposition

“torturing babies to death solely for entertainment purposes is objectively immoral”

is a true fact “not dependent on the mind for its existence.”

Another dictionary defines ‘objective’ as:

So go ahead…demonstrate that that the above-cited moral proposition has “reality independent of the mind”.
You know…just like you also don’t need any human input whatsoever to demonstrate anything else that you would characterize as having “objective” existence, such as trees.

If you start asking me questions, you’ll be violating the definition of objectivity. You don’t need my input on anything, nor do you need to know whether I accept or believe any certain way about it, to achieve your own stated goal of demonstrating the above-cited moral proposition to be objectively true.

You could also clear things up by directly answering the question of why you think said baby-torture is objectively immoral in the first place.
 
Is it immoral because the bible tells you so?
Is it immoral because most humans say it is immoral?
 
is it immoral because you personally find it revolting?

 Is it immoral because all strong feelings about a moral issue necessarily come from God?
Some other reason or reasons?

I look forward to your replies,

Barry
--------end of quoted reply------------

I could have added more problems:

Many Christians are 5-Point Calvinists and believe God has infallibly predestined each individual sinner to make the exact choices that they do, including sin.  Calvinists deny that God wishes to save everybody, and they happily blame God as the ultimate author of sin and evil.  Calvinists say our sense of freewill is entirely illusory, we do not have the ability to deviate from whatever future course of action God has predetermined for us.

Logically, that would require Calvinists to believe that the reason some people think it is morally permissible to torture babies to death solely for entertainment purposes, is because God predestined them to think and feel that way.  Nothing justifies a person's moral opinion more than the truth "God infallibly predestined me to feel this way and I had no ability to deviate from this result."
Then there's the small problem of god requiring that teen girls endure death by burning if they engage in prostitution before leaving their priest-father's house (Leviticus 21:9).  This moral came from God, so...was it "objective" (i.e., applicable to all people regardless of culture)?

Then there's the small problem of whether rape would be objectively immoral if God caused a man to rape a women.  Flannagan would, of course, immediately retort that the question is illegitimate since nothing in the bible says God would cause a man to rape a woman.  I beg to differ:

Isaiah 13, full chapter
 1 The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.
 2 Lift up a standard on the bare hill, Raise your voice to them, Wave the hand that they may enter the doors of the nobles.
 3 I have commanded My consecrated ones, I have even called My mighty warriors, My proudly exulting ones, To execute My anger.
 4 A sound of tumult on the mountains, Like that of many people! A sound of the uproar of kingdoms, Of nations gathered together! The LORD of hosts is mustering the army for battle.
 5 They are coming from a far country, From the farthest horizons, The LORD and His instruments of indignation, To destroy the whole land.
 6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
 7 Therefore all hands will fall limp, And every man's heart will melt.
 8 They will be terrified, Pains and anguish will take hold of them; They will writhe like a woman in labor, They will look at one another in astonishment, Their faces aflame.
 9 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light.
 11 Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.
 12 I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold And mankind than the gold of Ophir.
 13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the LORD of hosts In the day of His burning anger.
 14 And it will be that like a hunted gazelle, Or like sheep with none to gather them, They will each turn to his own people, And each one flee to his own land.
 15 Anyone who is found will be thrust through, And anyone who is captured will fall by the sword.
 16 Their little ones also will be dashed to pieces Before their eyes; Their houses will be plundered And their wives ravished.
 17 Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them, Who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold.
 18 And their bows will mow down the young men, They will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb, Nor will their eye pity children.

 19 And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans' pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
 20 It will never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation; Nor will the Arab pitch his tent there, Nor will shepherds make their flocks lie down there.
 21 But desert creatures will lie down there, And their houses will be full of owls; Ostriches also will live there, and shaggy goats will frolic there.
 22 Hyenas will howl in their fortified towers And jackals in their luxurious palaces. Her fateful time also will soon come And her days will not be prolonged. (Isa. 13:1-22 NAU)

Logically:
Premise 1:  Everything God does, is morally good.
Premise 2: God causes some men to rape women.
Conclusion: Therefore, when a man's rape of a women was caused by God, that rape was morally good.
Can we take God's clear admission of responsibility for causing rape ("I will stir up the Medes..."), at face value?  Or will Flannagan argue that the only objective way to interpret this is by presupposing biblical inerrancy and thus tossing out any interpretation that contradicts another part of the bible?

Hosea 13 describes much the saem type of divinely-caused atrocities:

 1 When Ephraim spoke, there was trembling. He exalted himself in Israel, But through Baal he did wrong and died.
 2 And now they sin more and more, And make for themselves molten images, Idols skillfully made from their silver, All of them the work of craftsmen. They say of them, "Let the men who sacrifice kiss the calves!"
 3 Therefore they will be like the morning cloud And like dew which soon disappears, Like chaff which is blown away from the threshing floor And like smoke from a chimney.
 4 Yet I have been the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me.
 5 I cared for you in the wilderness, In the land of drought.
 6 As they had their pasture, they became satisfied, And being satisfied, their heart became proud; Therefore they forgot Me.
 7 So I will be like a lion to them; Like a leopard I will lie in wait by the wayside.
 8 I will encounter them like a bear robbed of her cubs, And I will tear open their chests; There I will also devour them like a lioness, As a wild beast would tear them.
 9 It is your destruction, O Israel, That you are against Me, against your help.
 10 Where now is your king That he may save you in all your cities, And your judges of whom you requested, "Give me a king and princes "?
 11 I gave you a king in My anger And took him away in My wrath.
 12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; His sin is stored up.
 13 The pains of childbirth come upon him; He is not a wise son, For it is not the time that he should delay at the opening of the womb.
 14 Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from death? O Death, where are your thorns? O Sheol, where is your sting? Compassion will be hidden from My sight.
 15 Though he flourishes among the reeds, An east wind will come, The wind of the LORD coming up from the wilderness; And his fountain will become dry And his spring will be dried up; It will plunder his treasury of every precious article.
 16 Samaria will be held guilty, For she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, Their little ones will be dashed in pieces, And their pregnant women will be ripped open. (Hos. 13:1-16 NAU)
Once again, how can Flannagan accuse the pagan invaders who do these things of being objectively immoral if they are, in fact, doing what God wanted them to do?

Since when is it objectively immoral to do something God wanted you to do?

Does Flannagan think that sometimes God wants people to engage in objectively immoral acts?
 


If God wants you to force women to endure abortion-by-sword (v. 16), and if everything God wants is "good", then it is "good" to obey when God impells you to hack pregnant women to death.

And yet something tells me that Matthew Flannagan would probably insist that hacking a pregnant woman with a sword and yanking out the fetus constitutes an objectively immoral act.  And so, under Hosea 13, the infinitely good God wants certain people to engage in objectively immoral acts.

Now you know why I turned down several offers to become a Christian philosopher.

Monday, June 18, 2018

Cold Case Christianity: the bible is racist and imperfect

This is my reply to an article by J. Warner Wallace entitled




Recently, the editors of GQ (Gentlemen’s Quarterly online) released its list of 21 Books You Don’t Have to Read. They boldly claimed, “…not all the Great Books have aged well. Some are racist and some are sexist, but most are just really, really boring. So we—and a group of un-boring writers—give you permission to strike these books from the canon.” The Bible was smack dab in the middle of their list.

You may recognize a few other classic works on GQ’s roster of “racist,” “sexist,” and “boring” books: Salinger’s The Catcher in the Rye, Hemingway’s The Old Man and the Sea and A Farewell to Arms, Twain’s Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings, and Swift’s Gulliver’s Travels. These books were listed for a variety of reasons, but the editor’s explanation for the inclusion of the Bible was particularly harsh: “It is repetitive, self-contradictory, sententious, foolish, and even at times ill-intentioned.”

While many may find those words to be rather severe, they actually sounded familiar to me when I first read the GQ article. As an atheist, I can remember saying something similar to a Christian co-worker. But that all changed as I began to investigate the Bible using the skills I had developed as a detective. I’ve now come to appreciate the Bible above all other texts (religious or otherwise), largely because the editors of GQ are wrong:

The Bible’s not racist: The Bible doesn’t divide people based on their racial identity.
 Jesus held off granting a healing request to a Gentile women until she cleverly responded to his racist remark by admitting it was correct to characterize the Jews as children and herself as a dog:
 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."
 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."
 24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
 26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
 27 But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
 28 Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once. (Matt. 15:22-28 NAU)
 Inerrantist scholar has to trifle that the wording here suggests the Gentiles are not wild dogs, but pet dogs, as if this reduces the stigma!



15:25–28 The woman merely repeats her plea for help but also kneels. Whatever her intention, Matthew will see some kind of worship here. Jesus pursues the question of the distinction between Jews and Gentiles (v. 26). Jews frequently insulted Gentiles by calling them “dogs,”— the wild, homeless scavengers that roamed freely in Palestine. But the diminutive form here (kynarion rather than kyōn) suggests a more affectionate term for domestic pets, particularly since these dogs eat under the children’s table. Even at best, Jesus’ remarks still strike the modern reader as condescending. Jesus apparently wants to demonstrate and stretch this woman’s faith. The “children” must then refer to Israel and the “bread” to the blessings of God on the Jews, particularly through Jesus’ healing ministry. The woman disputes none of Jesus’ terms but argues that, even granting his viewpoint, he should still help her (v. 27). The Gentiles should receive at least residual blessings from God’s favor on the Jews. In fact, the Old Testament from Gen 12:1–3 onwards promised far more than residue. The woman reveals a tenacious faith even as a Gentile (v. 28). Jesus explicitly commends this faith, closely paralleling the narrative of 8:5–13 (as does also his instantaneous healing from a distance). Matthew’s distinctives underline her faith by the addition both of her words in v. 22 and of Jesus’ praise here. “Your request is granted” more literally reads let it be done for you as you wish.
Blomberg, C. (2001, c1992). Vol. 22: Matthew (electronic ed.).
Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (Page 244).
Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

 Evangelical scholar Hagner admits what "dog" really meant:



This word, used first by Jesus and then by the woman, recalls that Gentiles were sometimes likened to the unclean dogs that roamed the streets (cf. 7:6). κυρίων, “masters,” suggests the superiority of Israel as the people of God over the Gentiles.
Hagner, D. A. (2002). Vol. 33B:
Word Biblical Commentary : Matthew 14-28.
Word Biblical Commentary (Page 442). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.


 Wallace continues:
Skin color, along with other external human features, are unimportant to God.
But it was apparently important enough to the Jews that black people had to remind Jews to stop focusing on skin color:
 6 Do not stare at me because I am dark, because I am darkened by the sun. My mother's sons were angry with me and made me take care of the vineyards; my own vineyard I had to neglect. (Cant. 1:6 NIV)
 Wallace continues:
According to the Bible, God created humans – all humans – in His image (Genesis 1:27), and unlike the rest of us, God doesn’t judge people based on their outward appearance, but instead “looks on the heart” (1 Samuel 16:7).
If God doesn't judge by outward appearance, he probably didn't give the command requiring all Gentile men among the Hebrews to get circumcised:
48 "But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it. (Exod. 12:48 NAU)
 Numbers 31:18 says that among the Midianite women captured in war, only the females whose hymens are still intact can be spared the death-penalty:
 17 "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.
 18 "But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. (Num. 31:17-18 NAU)
 One has to wonder how Moses and his army men figured out which of the women were virgins and which weren't.  But we can be fairly sure that it involved something a bit more physically intrusive than prayer.

The Apostle Paul wrote that “there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus,” (Galatians 3:28), and the Apostle Peter said that, “God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him” (Acts 10:34-35).
And yet, long after the Great Commission wherein the risen Christ told the original apostles that they were to evangelize the Gentiles (Matthew 28:19-20), we still find them intentionally limiting their efforts solely to the Jews, and allocating the entire Gentile mission field to Paul alone, Galatians 2:9,
When Martin Luther King Jr. – a Bible believing, Baptist minister – argued for the dignity and equality of African Americans, he did so based on the teaching of Scripture. This alone is adequate reason to read the Bible.
Equality in the bible doesn't mean it contains no inequality or racist statements. Only those who believe in bible "inerrancy" would engage in such a broad brushing assumption.
The Bible’s not sexist: Given the cultural setting in which the Bible was written, it’s unfair to claim it is sexist.
 Is that why the bible says girl babies make the mother unclean longer than boy babies?
 2 "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying: 'When a woman gives birth and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean for seven days, as in the days of her menstruation she shall be unclean.
 3 'On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
 4 'Then she shall remain in the blood of her purification for thirty-three days; she shall not touch any consecrated thing, nor enter the sanctuary until the days of her purification are completed.
 5 'But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean for two weeks, as in her menstruation; and she shall remain in the blood of her purification for sixty-six days. (Lev. 12:2-5 NAU)
 Reminder to the apologists:  the text says the mother remains UNCLEAN longer upon birth of a baby girl. It is neither expressed nor implied that the extra time was to allow more bonding between mother and infant.  UNCLEAN is a yucky state of affairs, never something positive.

Wallace continues:
In fact, Jesus’ continuous interaction with women was countercultural. He had female disciples, many of his closest friends were women (i.e. Martha and her sister, Mary), and some of his most profound theological teaching was first shared with women (as in John 11:20-27).
He also talked down to his own mother:
  3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine."
 4 And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come."
 5 His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it." (Jn. 2:3-5 NAU)
And Jesus dishonorably refused to agree with somebody who considered his mother honorable:
  27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."
 28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it." (Lk. 11:27-28 NAU)
 Wallace continues:
It was a woman who first acknowledged the identity of Jesus as the Messiah (the Samaritan woman at the well in the Gospel of John),
 That's in the gospel of John, the latest of the gospels, and you don't have the first fucking clue whether this story is real or just made up by John, in light of conservative NT scholars Craig Evans and Mike Licona and their belief that John puts in Jesus' mouth words he never said.
and it was a woman (Mary) who first discovered the empty tomb.
But the low status of women might be inferred from the fact that the women are never credited by Paul or other apostles in their actual preaching of the resurrection.   Its not about who was first to see the empty tomb, but who Jesus actually appeared to.  And despite Jesus appearing to the women in all 4 gospels, the women are never cited as resurrection witnesses in Paul's infamous list of resurrection witnesses, 1st Corinthians 15:
 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;
 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. (1 Cor. 15:3-8 NAU)
Wallace continues:
Women played a critical role in the ministry of Jesus, because as Paul said, “there is no male and female” for we are all one in Christ.
 Nope, apostle Paul cited to Eve not being the first to be created, and Eve having been successfully hoodwinked by the devil, as his basis for refusing to allow women to teach in the church:
 9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. (1 Tim. 2:9-15 NAU)
 Commentators who pretend Paul only said this because of some local heresy, is total bullshit.  Paul's reasons for prohibiting women from teaching are reasons that would easily be taken as biblical evidence that women are intellectually inferior to men.

Wallace continues:
This teaching about the value, status and identity of women, written two millennia prior to modern feminist movements, once again makes the Bible worth reading.

The Bible’s not boring: The Bible isn’t simply a collection of moralistic stories and proverbial proclamations, and it isn’t uninteresting. It is a description of the world the way it really is.
Yeah right.  A book that mentions talking snakes, a parted Red Sea with a "wall of water" on either side of the escaping Israelites, a talking donkey, angels flying, people walking on water, rising from the dead, flying up to heaven, enjoying telepathy...this book describes the way the world really is?  FUCK YOU.

It presents a comprehensive view of reality, answering the most foundational questions asked by humans for thousands of years.
Correct.  Humans have been asking for thousands of years why evil like rape occurs, and Isaiah 13:13-17 answers:  this is God causing men to rape women:
 13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the LORD of hosts In the day of His burning anger.
 14 And it will be that like a hunted gazelle, Or like sheep with none to gather them, They will each turn to his own people, And each one flee to his own land.
 15 Anyone who is found will be thrust through, And anyone who is captured will fall by the sword.
 16 Their little ones also will be dashed to pieces Before their eyes; Their houses will be plundered And their wives ravished.
 17 Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them, Who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold.
18 And their bows will mow down the young men, They will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb, Nor will their eye pity children.  (Isa. 13:13-18)
Wallace continues:
It describes how we got here, why our world is broken, and how it can be fixed. The overarching narrative of the Bible has served to inspire artists of all kinds. Writers such as Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, and Dickens, artists like Da Vinci, Michelangelo and Del Greco, and musicians such as Vivaldi, Handel, and Bach found creative inspiration on the pages of Scripture.
It's also been a source of dangerous confusion for many people because it is more ideological than realistic.  You are never allowed to sin, and yet, reality makes it impossible to avoid sinning. So the bible-god intentionally commands the impossible, and yet wants his readers to believe that he shakes the mountains in fiery wrath when sinners sin.  One wonders whether God also sends judgments upon dogs for barking.
If you’re wondering what stirred these great creative geniuses, you might want to read the Bible for yourself.
And if the bible has confused your mind and made you think 'god' is a psycho more interested in himself than his victims, throwing the bible away might be the lesser of two evils.
As I began to investigate the claims of the Bible using my skillset as a cold-case detective, I found that the Gospels varied in content and style, just as I would expect if they were reliable eyewitness accounts of the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus.
They also contradict each other,  but perhaps as a detective you never worry about witnesses who contradict each other?  You cannot find any non-Christian historian who thinks the variation in the gospel testimony justifies moving beyond the details and concluding that Jesus rose from the dead even if some of the witnesses are in disagreement about other matters.
They weren’t overly “repetitive” nor “self-contradictory,” especially given my experience interviewing thousands of eyewitnesses.
But you've never interviewed eyewitnesses who lived in Palestine in 40 a.d.  Some would argue that your experience is useless for discerning the truth-content of ancient testimony given by people of vastly different cultures.  What are you gonna do next?  Call Matthew to the witness stand?

Cold Case Christianity: Wallace misleads the youth to become eager to violate New Testament principles



This is my reply to an article by J. Warner Wallace entitled


 Not long ago, Brett Kunkle, Sean McDowell and I spent several days training students for a Berkeley Missions trip. These trips are fun but challenging. Brett still leads these trips regularly, helping Christian high school students engage young men and women on the UC Berkeley campus. Once there, the students discuss issues related to theism, culture and worldview. These young Christians also interact with thoughtful atheist authors, speakers and student leaders during the trip. The resulting discussions are robust, pointed, and sometimes hostile. In spite of the challenging nature of the excursion, students usually begin this training with a naïve sense of confidence and (I hate to say it) apathy.
Only a Christian apologist would try to put a damper on a child's joy in the Lord.

And if the kids are apathetic toward the goal of the trip, that might tell you they don't have enough of the Holy Spirit to justify trying to "empower" them for the mission field, especially the type of mission field that is most likely to put them in contact with information likely to persuade them to do what many other Christians have done, and give up the faith.
Like many other Christians I meet across the country, our students need to understand the importance of case making before they will ever take a step toward becoming case makers.
That's funny, I thought that the basis for the motive to become a productive Christian was the Holy Spirit.  It's nice to know you are a cessationist, and therefore, you have about as much of a 'relationship' with Jesus as you have with Abraham Lincoln.
As we begin to train each group, we must overcome their apathy and naïve confidence.
Some Christians would argue that the more effort you put into trying to motivate Christians to become more interested in goals you think are spiritual, the less convicting power of the Holy Spirit you actually believe in.  In today's apologetics, the Holy Spirit is nothing but a gratuitous afterthought.  Fuck what the bible says, your spiritual growth will be stunted if you don't learn how to answer atheism.  How can you seriously believe God has any part to play here, if your actions make it seem as if God just sits up there looking down and expecting everybody else to do all the work?  Like I said, "gratuitous afterthought".
If you’ve tried to energize your own church, family or community about “apologetics” (Christian Case Making), you’ve probably experienced something similar.
Wow, the general apathy of today's Christians toward apologetics is so pervasive, even an apologist can complain about it.
In fact, many of you have written to me, expressing this frustration: “How can I encourage my church to understand the need for Christian Case Making?” If you’ve ever found yourself asking a question like this, I have a potential solution: consider role-playing.
That solution is nowhere expressed or implied in the bible.  But prayer is:
 24 "Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you. (Mk. 11:24 NAU)
 If Christians pray, yet don't convince their church to start giving a fuck about "case-making", you might consider that God, in his sovereignty, has decided that this is one of the things he doesn't want the Christians in this church or that church to engage in.  But no, you keep on truckin' as if what you have to say applies across the board to everybody all the time.

You also might try a little common sense: If the church is not interested in apologetics, you have no reason to think they are spiritually mature enough to handle getting that close to the devil, in which case it makes more sense to either walk away, or build them up in the faith before trying to turn them into spiritual lights.

In 1st Corinthians 12 Paul insisted that not everybody has the same spiritual gifts:
 27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.
 (1 Cor. 12:27-31 NAU)
 Paul admitted elsewhere that while he has the ideological goal of others being like him in their actions and life-choices, he also knows that this is unrealistic because not everybody has the same gifts.  Notice what he says about the goodness of men remaining single, but the stupidity of expecting this of every man:
 5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
 6 But this I say by way of concession, not of command.
 7 Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that. (1 Cor. 7:5-7 NAU)
Yet Wallace is so stuck on his "case-making" bells and whistles, he leaves no room for the obvious biblical truth that not everybody has the gift of teaching, and certainly not "youths" (!?)...and of course "teaching" is precisely what Wallace is having these kids doing when they try to 'answer' atheists and bible skeptics. 

Wallace is so focused on his goal of selling Jesus in Wallace-style that he has completely forgotten that there are probably millions of Christians he is speaking who are not and never will be fit to hold the office of a teacher.

And that's to say nothing of the fact that he is asking youngsters to be "teachers", when in fact not only is there no biblical precedent for this, but the biblical precedent warns even adults that most of them should not consider becoming teachers:
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. (Jas. 3:1 NAU)
Other biblical criteria for teachers necessarily imply the teacher is not a youth but well-seasoned by experience to handle the crap that normally comes with being a teacher:
 23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
 24 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.    (2 Tim. 2:23-26 NAU)
First, given Wallace's insanely obstinate stance that Christianity is true and atheism false, we might very well force Wallace to take the position that he believes atheism and all of its challenges to theism constitute "foolish and ignorant speculations" which Paul said to avoid (v. 23).  And indeed, other parts of the bible force Wallace to view atheism as not merely wrong, but foolish (Psalm 14:1) and thus, the New Testament, in telling Wallace to stay away from foolish and ignorant speculations, is telling him to stay away from atheism.

Second, the teacher cannot be "quarrelsome" (v. 24), yet I would imagine that any school-aged child who really liked apologetics, would likely harbor such desire because it gives them a way to vent their sinful lust to argue, a lust they wish to indulge merely because they get off on being contentious with others.

Many kids and teens are attention-whores, and Wallace runs the risk that many of the youth in his audiences will look upon their bible and faith as an excuse to draw attention to themselves, as indeed happens to most apologists, including Wallace himself, when in fact the alleged goal is to transfer focus off of oneself and onto Jesus.  Wallace's trying to turn kids into spiritual lights is like trying to promote a teenager to the position of overseer.  He is about as pathetic as the 18 year old Mormon missionaries who call themselves "Elder" so-and-so.  Elder?  Really?


Paul also presumes folly in the young when he says young widows are not to be placed on the church's charity list until they are old, because, Paul presumes, they will more than likely give in to their animal instincts and end up wanting to get married again, or gossiping again:
 11 But refuse to put younger widows on the list, for when they feel sensual desires in disregard of Christ, they want to get married,
 12 thus incurring condemnation, because they have set aside their previous pledge.
 13 At the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention.
 14 Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach;
 15 for some have already turned aside to follow Satan. (1 Tim. 5:11-15 NAU)
It is clear that Wallace doesn't give two shits about this biblical precedent; if you wanted your 3 year old to learn apologetics, Wallace would probably write a book on it and then tour the U.S. giving lectures on how important it is to buy his books and turn toddlers into spiritual warriors.  Doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense, most of the crap Wallace teaches also doesn't make sense (as can be presumed from his carefully efforts to avoid debating me and avoid responding to my challenges and indeed to any challenges from other informed bible critics), but that doesn't slow him down in the least from being utterly obsessed with selling, selling, selling.  He is nothing but a 1950's Jehovah Witness with a bullhorn on his car.  If you wish to make money selling Jesus, advertise, advertise, advertise.
As Christ followers, we typically surround ourselves with other like-minded believers.
Which is the reason you and Christian "heretics" are so difficult to dissuade, you purposefully create a happy social bubble that makes it nearly impossible for truths you don't agree with, to significantly impact your life (to be fair, Wallace is into apologetics so he is less inclined to say inside his happy Christian bubble than most Christians).  I suppose that if I surrounded myself only with other atheist bible critics, I would create a happy bubble around myself, but I can afford to be more objective than Christians can.
In the comfortable worlds we inhabit and create for ourselves, we seldom encounter people who challenge us or make us uncomfortable.
That can only be a good thing in the bible, since it is precisely the outsider's challenging and making you uncomfortable that leads straight to your apostasy or heresy.   Wallace doesn't consider that some Christians are likely so fragile in the faith that they aren't ready to join god's "army".
Many of us don’t even understand the extent to which our Christian beliefs are being challenged by the increasingly antagonistic culture. We’ve insolated (sic) ourselves to the point of apathy.
That might give you a clue, Wallace: the only reason you have an apathetic Christian demographic to market your materials to in the first place, is because those people either lack salvation, or are otherwise not intended by God to be spiritual soldiers. 
Because we’re never challenged, we fail to see the need to study.
Blame it on the Holy Spirit, since he is allegedly capable of making even unbelievers do what he wants (Ezra 1:1), so he has no excuse for not exerting the same magically coercive telepathy on his own followers.
Most of us don’t start thinking about dinner until we get hungry.
Telling you that most of your readers have more in common with elementary school kids than they have with city planners.  School kids?  Not the kind of people that should be teaching atheists...the devil's most clever disciples.
We don’t start shopping for a car until our current car isn’t working.
Ditto.
Similarly, most Christians don’t recognize the need for Case Making until they’ve been challenged to make a case.
But you haven't shown biblical justification for saying ALL Christians need to be case-makers.  Apologetics puts you in contact with some very smart people who have a track record of successfully deconverting Christians.  You are rather stupid if you think you aren't putting kids in spiritual danger by blindly assuming its always good for them to do the work that not even most adult teachers are prepared to do.
That’s why role-playing is so effective. Last night, as in most of our prior training sessions, we began with some acting. We spent an hour challenging the students as though we were non-believers. We did our best to portray the opposition with clarity and fairness, but we pressed our students as much as possible. We presented the arguments we typically encounter when talking with atheists (or held ourselves when we were non-believers).
They'd be better prepared for real-world encounters if you have them try to handle a real atheist or bible critic.  If you are going to ignore biblical restrictions, then go for gold.
At first, it didn’t take much effort to stump the group or frustrate them with our atheistic objections. Within minutes, the students realized they were unable to defend what they believed as Christians. After an hour, their frustration was palpable. They were irritated with their inability to defend what they believed, and while this incompetence made them uncomfortable, it served our purposes perfectly. Suddenly, Christian Case Making became important to these students; they understood their inability and the magnitude of the challenge.
Probably because they were youthful, and youths have more tendency to want to win an argument for reasons other than long-term spiritual good.  Impressing one's cohorts with flashes of intellectual brilliance are also among the reasons many Christian  youths would wish to become involves in apologetics.   

Once again, the bible says atheism is foolish (Psalm 14:1), and the Christian teacher is to avoid foolish subjects (2nd Timothy 2:23 ff, supra).  I find it disturbing, to say the least, that Wallace can forge ahead with his new marketing scheme, while being so blissfully ignorant of (or apathetic toward) the New Testament restrictions on just who is supposed to be a teacher.
When I am asked to do longer, multi-session training with a group, I sometimes begin without revealing my Christian identity at all. I’ll introduce myself as the old atheist I used to be. Without revealing who I am today, I’ll spend an hour demonstrating the defensive shortcomings of the group.
Hard to believe that the Holy Spirit, whom you credit as the reason you have joy in the Lord, would approve of you misleading others about what you really believe.  YOU might play games, but the Holy Spirit likely doesn't.
When I finally reveal I’m a Christian, the group is typically relieved to find out I am on their side. If my time with a group is much shorter, I’ll still find a way to “role-play” the position of those who oppose the Christian view. If nothing else, I’ll simply provide a series of quotes (or even a short video) demonstrating the strength of the opposition.
If you want to turn them into spiritual giants, have them meet with me or some other bible critic who specializes in answering apologists.   I'll start them off on why it makes no sense to say that causing men to rape women can possibly be "loving".  Isaiah 13, Hosea 13.  Either the god of the bible has a history of actions utterly inconsistent with "love", or the definition of "love" becomes intolerably and uselessly malleable.

If we are supposed to believe that God "loves" the women that he causes other men to rape, that is a horrifically ignorant and desperate view that that nobody finds the least bit compelling...except Christian apologists whose solitary goal in life is to transform ancient tribal barbarian philosophy from the OT prophets, into something more acceptable to modern western notions of justice and common sense.
In other words, I begin by creating a hunger for the meal we are about to eat.
In other words, like a salesman, you create a problem for which your materials, on sale now,  provide a solution.  Standard operating procedure for any car salesman.
I try to demonstrate the urgency of the questions so the answers will be embraced more eagerly.
Very sad that an alleged "bible-believer" like you causes youth to eagerly involve themselves in answering atheism, when your own NT directly forbids any Christian from becoming involved in such "foolish speculations".  You need to check yourself, Wallace, you are missing the forest for the trees.
If you’re a “One Dollar Apologist” and you’re struggling to introduce Christian Case Making to your Christian brothers and sisters, consider the importance of role playing. If nothing else, present the opposing case prior to making the case for Christianity. When you demonstrate the strength of the challenge, people are far more willing to strengthen their ability to respond.
But whatever you do, don't trust in the power of the Holy Spirit nor in the power of prayer.  No, you are hopelessly stuck in mire unless and until you purchase Wallace's materials. Maybe he can explain how the bible alone can be sufficient for faith and practice, yet also be insufficient until it is supplemented by commentaries written by sinful men far less inspired than the biblical authors.

Thursday, June 14, 2018

Cold Case Christianity: Wallace continues to employ weak arguments for gospel reliability


This is my reply to an article by J. Warner Wallace entitled


I am confident the Gospels were written early and were not corrupted or altered over time.
Then apparently you are unaware of how often Matthew "corrects" Mark.  Most Christian scholars, noting that Matthew and Mark read almost identically in many places (Synoptic Problem) agree with the theory that says this is so because Mark wrote first, and Matthew came along later, and borrowed extensively from Mark's text.

In the places where Matthew parallels a story in Mark, Matthew's version exhibits a consistent pattern:  where Mark's version would appear to support a low Christology (i.e., that Jesus was less than perfect or had only limited power), Matthew's changes make it more difficult, if not impossible, to sustain such low Christology.  Mark's version of the story says Jesus "could not" do many miracles there, Matthew's version changes this to "did not" do many miracles there, effectively getting rid of the implication that Jesus' miraculous powers were limited:




 Inerrantist Christian scholar J. A Brooks explains:
6:5 This statement about Jesus’ inability to do something is one of the most striking instances of Mark’s boldness and candor. It is omitted by Luke 4:16–30 and toned down by Matt 13:58. The statement should not trouble contemporary Christians. God and his Son could do anything, but they have chosen to limit themselves in accordance to human response. Even in the present instance Jesus healed a few, perhaps some who did have faith or who were too sick to have an opinion about him. The statement clarifies that Jesus was not the kind of miracle worker whose primary purpose was to impress his viewers.
Brooks, J. A. (2001, c1991). Vol. 23: Mark (electronic e.).
Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (Page 100).
Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

Sure, Brooks goes on to 'explain' why Mark's more candid wording shouldn't bother Christians (who fantasize that Jesus was omnipotent regardless of what the bible might actually say), but his explanation is singularly unconvincing:  If Matthew had interpreted Mark's "did not" the way inerrantist J.A. Brooks does, Matthew would have had no more motive to "tone down" Mark's version than Brooks has. 

It is thus clear from Matthew's motive in "toning down" Mark's version, that Matthew was not comfortable with the words God told Mark to write.  J. Warner Wallace might find life more tolerable living within the happy wonderland of bible inerrancy, but it isn't realistic. 
As a new investigator of the claims of Christianity, I examined the case for early dating and became convinced the Gospels were written within the generation of the eyewitnesses.
Then you must have placed too much emphasis on a rather nebulous area of bible scholarship.  Inerrantist and conservative Christian scholars bemoan the almost impossible task of figuring out the date any gospel was written.  Guelich on Mark’s date:
As was the case with authorship and place, the debate over a precise dating of the Gospel indicates above all how little solid internal evidence we have to go on.
Guelich, R. A. (2002). Vol. 34A: Word Biblical Commentary : Mark 1-8:26.
Word Biblical Commentary (Page xxxii). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.

 Craig Blomberg on Matthew’s date:
External evidence proves scarcely more conclusive than internal evidence…Considerations of authorship prove equally indecisive. We have no secure traditions about how long the apostle Matthew lived or when he died. Nor does a possible provenance in Palestine or Syria enable us to narrow the time span. We must conclude, with D. A. Carson, that any date between 40 and 100 fits the data.
Blomberg, C. (2001, c1992). Vol. 22: Matthew (electronic ed.).
Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (Page 40).
Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

Wallace continues:
But how do we know whether or not the early accounts were corrupted over the years?
Easy, get yourself a "gospel parallels" book and carefully note those places where Matthew and Mark tell the same story. Matthew exhibits a consistent pattern:  where Mark's wording might plausibly support a low Christology, Matthew either "tones down", adds wording supporting a higher Christological view, or omits part of Mark's wording altogether.  See above, not only did Matthew take Mark's "could not" and tone it down to "did not", he also completely omitted Mark's following phrase that Jesus "wondered" at the unbelief of the people...a phrase that clearly supports a low Christology (i.e., if Jesus was God, he would not "wonder" at anything).

Once again, if Matthew wasn't "correcting" Mark, then what motivated him to make these changes and omissions?  If Matthew believed Mark's gospel text was "inerrant", he would not have sought to change and delete anything in Mark any more than any of the signatories to the Chicago Statement on Bible Inerrancy would wish to modify Mark's wording.
One way to test the content of the Gospels as they were passed down from generation to generation is to simply compare what was written about the Gospels by those who had direct contact with the eyewitnesses.
Good luck convincing anybody except other Christians that the surviving works of Ignatius, Papias,  Polycarp and other alleged direct followers of the apostles are preserved unto us intact, reasonably free of textual corruption or authorship suspicion, and that these persons had personally conversed with the original apostles of Jesus.  That scholarly controversy could fill a book, yet you talk about it as if the procedure wasn't much more involved than what we do today, contacting a person who knew the eyewitness and getting a statement.  Life isn't that easy, Wallace.
I’ve written about the New Testament Chain of Custody in Cold-Case Christianity; when testing the validity of a piece of evidence in a particular case, we need to establish who handled the evidence from the time it was first collected to the time it is presented in trial. When it comes to the Gospel eyewitness accounts, we must examine what the students of the Gospel authors said about the text, then what their students said, then what the next generation said, and continue this examination down through history, comparing the statements and quotes to determine if the message of Scripture has changed.
Wrong, see above:  You can discover how the gospel message changed by noting how Matthew's later gospel often "corrects" Mark or else omits or adds to his more primitive version.  Here's another example, this time Matthew significantly embellishes Mark's more simple version of Peter's Confession:


“Messiah”?  or “Messiah, Son of the living God”?
Mark 8
Matthew 16
27 Jesus went out, along with His disciples, to the villages of Caesarea Philippi;

and on the way He questioned His disciples, saying to them, "Who do people say that I am?"

 28 They told Him, saying, "John the Baptist; and others say Elijah; but others, one of the prophets."


 29 And He continued by questioning them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Peter answered and said to Him, "You are the Christ."







 



 30 And He warned them to tell no one about Him.


 31 And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must

suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes,
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi,
 
He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
 
 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."

 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, 

the Son of the living God."

 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
 
 20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and

suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.


 It doesn't matter what solution you chose to solve the Synoptic Problem, it remains likely that somebody is lying:

If you agree with most Christian scholars that Mark's gospel is earlier, then how likely is it that Mark would "choose to omit" the vast bulk of Peter's theologically significant answer?  That's unlikely, so there's a good probability that the reason Mark's earlier version of Peter's Confession is shorter is because Matthew's later version constitutes adding fictional embellishments.

If you disagree with most Christian scholars, and instead hold that Matthew's gospel is earlier, then we have to ask why Mark, coming along later and borrowing text from Matthew, would "choose to exclude" the vast bulk of Peter's theologically significant confession, when in fact the part he appears to have omitted contains rather important doctrine on the authority of Peter to "bind and loose" (i.e., to forgive or refuse to forgive the sins of other people).

The monkey wrench in this machinery is that the early church fathers between the 2nd and 4th centuries are unanimous that Mark was Peter's follower or "secretary".  If that belief is true, then it must be presumed that Mark was well aware of the full extent of Peter's confession, since he was Peter's companion, thus in the best position to know how much Peter said during that confession...returning us once again to the problematic question of how likely it is that Mark would knowingly "choose to exclude" from the reader's eyes the most theologically significant portion of Peter's reply here.

I'm sorry, but that's horrifically unlikely.  It is far more likely, given patterns that Matthew has already demonstrated, that the reason these parallel accounts differ like this is because Matthew is coming along, later, using Mark's text as something of a template, and is knowingly embellishing Peter's short answer with fictitious words (i.e., Matthew is putting in Peter's mouth words Peter never said, i.e., fiction).

Or...Matthew thinks Mark was in error to exclude so much of Peter's Confession, since Matthew himself clearly prefers the longer version.  And Matthew's and Mark's different ideas about what would be sufficient gospel material to reveal to the reader, is made even more problematic by the conservative Christian belief that these two men were inspired by one and the same unchangeable god to write the way they did.

How likely is it that God would want Mark to hide most of Peter's confession from the readers, but then want Matthew to reveal the missing parts?

Then again no fool was ever stupid enough to claim that god was ever consistent or rational.  
Today, I’ll provide an example with the Chain of Custody from the Apostle John (additional “chains” can be found in Cold-Case Christianity).

John (6-100AD) was the youngest of Jesus’ disciples. He was the son of Zebedee and Salome and the brother of James. While a young man, John witnessed the life of Jesus and saw firsthand many of the amazing miracles Jesus performed. John also witnessed the Resurrection. John wrote his Gospel as an eyewitness account, accurately reflecting the truth related to what he observed as a disciple of Jesus.
But other conservative Christian scholars such as Craig Evans and Mike Licona agree that John's gospel often puts in Jesus' mouth words he never actually said...a position a "conservative" Christian would hardly take if the evidence in favor of John's historical accuracy were as obvious and clear as you pretend in your popular-level books.
This Gospel is a critical piece of evidence from the “crime scene” and John taught three important students and passed his Gospel into their trusted hands. These three men (Ignatius, Papias and Polycarp) became important early Church leaders in their own right and wrote about what they learned from John.
Like I said...have fun convincing the scholars, who know better, that the writings from these persons are reasonably free of suspicion and defect.
John Taught Ignatius, Papias and Polycarp
Ignatius (35-117AD) also called himself “Theophorus” (which means “God Bearer”). Church tradition describes Ignatius as one of the children that Jesus blessed in the Gospel accounts.
Church tradition also includes lots of stupid shit...like Papias, an alleged follower of the apostles, saying Jesus once gave a story about how grapes would one day talk to people.  I documented this earlier, search my blog post here for "grapes".
Ignatius was a student of John and eventually became Bishop at Antioch, (Turkey), following the Apostle Peter. He wrote several important letters to the early Church and seven of them survive to this day. These letters are important because they demonstrate the New Testament documents were already written and familiar to the early Christians. Ignatius quoted or alluded to many New Testament books (including Matthew, John and Luke, and several, if not all, of Paul’s letters).
 Philip Schaff, an actual scholar of Christian history and not an "apologist", in his History of the Christian Church, justifies skepticism toward even the alleged "genuine" epistles of Ignatius:


§ 45.  Development of the Episcopate.  Ignatius.
The whole story of Ignatius is more legendary than real, and his writings are subject to grave suspicion of fraudulent interpolation.  We have three different versions of the Ignatian Epistles, but only one of them can be genuine; either the smaller Greek version, or the lately discovered Syriac.  In the latter, which contains only three epistles, most of the passages on the episcopate are wanting, indeed; yet the leading features of the institution appear even here, and we can recognise ex ungue leonem.  In any case they reflect the public sentiment before the middle of the second century.  

II. His Letters.
On his journey to Rome, Bishop Ignatius, as a prisoner of Jesus Christ, wrote seven epistles to various churches, mostly in Asia Minor.  Eusebius and Jerome put them in the following order: (1) To the Ephesians; (2) to the Magnesians; (3) to the Trallians; (4) to the Romans; (5) to the Philadelphians; (6) to the Smyrneans; (7) to Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna.  The first four were composed in Smyrna; the other three later in Troas.  These seven epistles, in connection with a number of other decidedly spurious epistles of Ignatius, have come down to us in two Greek versions, a longer and a shorter.  The shorter is unquestionably to be preferred to the longer, which abounds with later interpolations.  Besides these, to increase the confusion of controversy, a Syriac translation has been made known in 1845, which contains only three of the former epistles — those to Polycarp, to the Ephesians, and to the Romans — and these in a much shorter form.  This version is regarded by some as an exact transfer of the original; by others, with greater probability, as a mere extract from it for practical and ascetic purposes.

…The only genuine Ignatius, as the question now stands, is the Ignatius of the shorter seven Greek epistles.
Wallace continues:
Ignatius provides us with a link in the Chain of Custody related to the original eyewitness accounts, demonstrating they were written very early and entrusted directly to key disciples who guarded them as Scripture.
 Ignatius also felt free to embellish the virgin birth story.  Whereas the biblical story says:
 7 Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared.
 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him."
 9 After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was.
 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy. (Matt. 2:7-10 NAU)
 Ignatius embellishes this story.  From his Epistle to the Ephesians, ch. 19:
(actually, there is the shorter and the longer versions of this part of Ignatius' letter at this chapter, so here they are: 
Chapter 19
Three Celebrated Mysteries
[Shorter]
Now the virginity of Mary was hidden from the prince of this world, as was also her offspring, and the death of the Lord; three mysteries of renown, which were wrought in silence by God. How, then, was He manifested to the world? A star shone forth in heaven above all the other stars, the light of which was inexpressible, while its novelty struck men with astonishment. And all the rest of the stars, with the sun and moon, formed a chorus to this star, and its light was exceedingly great above them all. And there was agitation felt as to whence this new spectacle came, so unlike to everything else [in the heavens]. Hence every kind of magic was destroyed, and every bond of wickedness disappeared; ignorance was removed, and the old kingdom abolished, God Himself being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life. And now that took a beginning which had been prepared by God. Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated the abolition of death.
[Longer]
Now the virginity of Mary was hidden from the prince of this world, as was also her offspring, and the death of the Lord; three mysteries of renown, which were wrought in silence, but have been revealed to us. A star shone forth in heaven above all that were before it, and its light was inexpressible, while its novelty struck men with astonishment. And all the rest of the stars, with the sun and moon, formed a chorus to this star. It far exceeded them all in brightness, and agitation was felt as to whence this new spectacle [proceeded]. Hence worldly wisdom became folly; conjuration was seen to be mere trifling; and magic became utterly ridiculous. Every law of wickedness vanished away; the darkness of ignorance was dispersed; and tyrannical authority was destroyed, God being manifested as a man, and man displaying power as God. But neither was the former a mere imagination, nor did the second imply a bare humanity; but the one was absolutely true, and the other an economical arrangement. Now that received a beginning which was perfected by God. Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated the abolition of death.

Naturally, Wallace, wishing to make Ignatius as honest as possible, will choose the recension of this letter that contains less embellishments (i.e., the shorter one), but even so, that doesn't gain him much advantage:

Ignatius says the star was brighter than other stars, the bible doesn't.
Ignatius says the star struck men with astonishment, the bible doesn't.
Ignatius says the moon and other stars joined this star in chorus, the bible doesn't.
Ignatius says there was agitation felt because of the star, the bible doesn't.
Ignatius says the appearance of the star destroyed every kind of magic, the bible doesn't.
Etc, etc.

Taking Wallace's logic, we must infer that it was apostle John who taught Ignatius to use fiction to dress up the biblical stories and make them more dramatic than they originally were.

Wallace continues:
Papias (60-135AD) was described by Irenaeus as a “hearer of John, and companion of Polycarp, a man of old time”. He eventually became the Bishop of Hierapolis (now known as Pamukake in Turkey). He was quite familiar with the oral testimony of the eyewitnesses during the early documentation of their Gospel accounts. These documents were still being written and circulated during Papias’ early lifetime.
Strangely, what Wallace doesn't tell you is that Eusebius, the 4th century church historian, emphatically disagreed with 2nd century Irenaeus on this point, and insisted that Papias did not hear from the apostles himself, but only heard what they said through third-parties.  From Eusebius, Church History, Book 3, ch. 39:

1. There are extant five books of Papias, which bear the title Expositions of Oracles of the Lord. Irenæus makes mention of these as the only works written by him, in the following words: "These things are attested by Papias, an ancient man who was a hearer of John and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book. For five books have been written by him." These are the words of Irenæus.

2. But Papias himself in the preface to his discourses by no means declares that he was himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles, but he shows by the words which he uses that he received the doctrines of the faith from those who were their friends.

3. He says: But I shall not hesitate also to put down for you along with my interpretations whatsoever things I have at any time learned carefully from the elders and carefully remembered, guaranteeing their truth. For I did not, like the multitude, take pleasure in those that speak much, but in those that teach the truth; not in those that relate strange commandments, but in those that deliver the commandments given by the Lord to faith, and springing from the truth itself.

4. If, then, any one came, who had been a follower of the elders, I questioned him in regard to the words of the elders — what Andrew or what Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the disciples of the Lord, and what things Aristion and the presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say. For I did not think that what was to be gotten from the books would profit me as much as what came from the living and abiding voice.

5. It is worth while observing here that the name John is twice enumerated by him. The first one he mentions in connection with Peter and James and Matthew and the rest of the apostles, clearly meaning the evangelist; but the other John he mentions after an interval, and places him among others outside of the number of the apostles, putting Aristion before him, and he distinctly calls him a presbyter.

6. This shows that the statement of those is true, who say that there were two persons in Asia that bore the same name, and that there were two tombs in Ephesus, each of which, even to the present day, is called John's. It is important to notice this. For it is probable that it was the second, if one is not willing to admit that it was the first that saw the Revelation, which is ascribed by name to John.

7. And Papias, of whom we are now speaking, confesses that he received the words of the apostles from those that followed them, but says that he was himself a hearer of Aristion and the presbyter John. At least he mentions them frequently by name, and gives their traditions in his writings. These things, we hope, have not been uselessly adduced by us.
Yes, Christian scholar Monte Shanks, Ph.d, wrote what is the most recent and persuasive case that Eusebius got this wrong, Irenaeus got it right, and that Papias really did have a personal or real-time acquaintance with apostle John, but I've already had a long discussion with Shanks on this, I've refuted his book, and I'll do battle with anybody who tries to use Shank's work to make Papias look reliable. 
Papias wrote a lengthy five-volume treatise called “Interpretations of the Sayings of the Lord”, but this text has been lost to us. Papias’ work (as quoted later by Eusebius), alludes to many Gospel passages and stories.
Again, Wallace doesn't tell you that one such story was that grapes would one day talk to people, a story about the alleged 1000-year reign of Christ or "Millennium" (the doctrine is called chiliasm)  that cannot be plausibly interpreted as metaphor.  So the talking grapes element, that is, the part that is most absurd, was intended to be taken literally.  THAT's how stupid Papias and Irenaeus were.
Papias represents another link in the chain of custody, learning from John and the other eyewitnesses and passing this information down to the next generation.

Polycarp (69-155AD) was a friend of Ignatius and a student of John. Irenaeus later testified that he once heard Polycarp talk about his conversations with John, and Polycarp was known to have been converted to Christianity by the eyewitness Apostles themselves. Polycarp eventually became the Bishop of Smyrna (now known as Izmir in Turkey) and wrote a letter to the Philippians that references fourteen to sixteen New Testament books (including Matthew, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 1 Peter and 1 John, with some scholars observing additional references to 2 Timothy and 2 Corinthians). Polycarp’s letter demonstrates the early texts were in circulation and familiar to the Philippians, making Polycarp’s references in his letter all the more meaningful.

Ignatius, Papias and Polycarp Taught Irenaeus
Irenaeus (120-202AD) was born in Smyrna, the city where Polycarp served as Bishop. He was raised in a Christian family and was a “hearer” of Polycarp; he later recalled hearing Polycarp talk about his conversations with the Apostle John. He eventually became a priest (and then the Bishop) of Lugdunum in Gaul (presently known as Lyons, France). Irenaeus matured into a theologian and apologist and wrote an important work called “Adversus Haereses” (Against Heresies). This refined response to the heresy of Gnosticism provided Irenaeus with the opportunity to address the issue of Scriptural authority and he identified as many as twenty-four New Testament books as Scripture (including Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 1 John, 2 John and Revelation). Irenaeus provides us with another link in the chain of custody, affirming the established eyewitness accounts and faithfully preserving them for the next generation.

One wonders why Wallace appears to think that because it exists, and was linked to authorship by somebody after the apostles, reasonable people have no choice but to accept all this stuff as true and reliable.
Irenaeus Taught Hippolytus
Hippolytus (170-236AD) was born in Rome and was a disciple of Irenaeus. As he grew into a position of leadership, he opposed Roman Bishops who modified their beliefs to accommodate the large number of pagans who were coming to faith in the city. In taking a stand for orthodoxy, he became known as the first “anti-pope” or “rival pope” in Christian history. He was an accomplished speaker of great learning, influencing a number of important Christian leaders such as Origen of Alexandria (who heard him preaching while he was a presbyter under Pope Zephyrinus). Hippolytus wrote a huge ten-volume treatise called, “Refutation of All Heresies”. In this expansive work, Hippolytus identified as many as twenty-four New Testament books as Scripture (including Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, 1 Peter, 1 John, 2 John and Revelation). Unfortunately, Hippolytus was persecuted under Emperor Maximus Thrax and exiled to Sardinia where he most likely died in the mines.
Marcion's canon was much shorter, and the only reason you think he was wrong is because he was accused by the "orthodox" church fathers, whose writing are our only information on Marcion,  of arbitrarily cutting out portions of the gospel text and keeping only what he liked.  You'd probably be singing a different tune if all of Marcion's writings and those of his defenders had survived unto today.  it's difficult to believe he'd have gained as wide of a following as the church fathers complain he did, if he was an absolute fool who clearly cherry-picked a few bits from the gospels and tossed the rest away...lest you commit yoruself the proposition that people were shockingly gullible in the 2nd century...which is a generalization that must then include Christians.  If Marcion's followers were duped because they couldn't check to see whether his version of the gospels was the same as the originals, that inability to check would also plague the Christians who attended "orthodox" churches.
As a result of Hippolytus’ exile and martyrdom, this particular chain of custody ends without a clear “next link”, although it is certain Hippolytus had many important students who preserved the Scripture with the same passion he had as a student of Irenaeus. One thing we know for sure: the Canon of Scripture was already established in the early 2nd Century, as eyewitness accounts were recorded by the Apostles and handed down to their disciples who wrote about them, described them, and identified them for later generations.
No, Wallace, you are not establishing the "eyewitness" nature of the canonical gospels by showing that they are quoted in the early church fathers.  The early fathers believed lots of false information, such as that Matthew was the first gospel to be published...a position now denied by the majority of bible scholars.

Why Wallace thinks "quoted by Hippolytus!" means "gospels were authored by eyewitnesses" remains a mystery.
The following facts about Jesus were affirmed from the earliest “links” in the New Testament Chain of Custody:

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary
Mark's gospel says nothing about this and is viewed by most Christian scholars as the earliest of the 4 canonical gospels (i.e., the earliest of the 4 gospels lacks the virgin birth story...suggesting the later gospels have it only because they are embellishing upon the original and less dramatic story).  In light of Mark's discernible intent to show Jesus as divine Son of God, it is highly unlikely he would have "chosen to exclude" references to the virgin birth, had he either known about them, or trusted that they were true.  So Mark's absolute silence on the virgin birth cannot be explained as his choice to leave out certain historical details. And if you trust as true the unanimous opinion of the early fathers that Mark is a written version of Peter's preaching, then Mark's intent in writing was little more than to repeat what the requesting church previously heard Peter say....so you cannot explain Mark's silence as a case of him not wanting to repeat what his church already believed.  They also already believed Jesus was baptized by John the baptist, healed many people, died for sin and rose from the dead too, yet Mark includes that stuff in his gospel nonetheless.
A star announced His birth
James Dunn is a Christian and a bible scholar, yet Gary Habermas noted that despite Dunn's openness to the supernatural, this moving star business in the Virgin Birth stories was not likely historically real.  Dunn said:
“Matthew’s moving star does not evoke a strong impression of historical credibility. If, instead, we attribute such detail to the symbolical imagination of the story-teller, how much of the story remains as a viable historical account?” (See Habermas, op cit.)
 I would argue as a skeptic that because Matthew specifies the "star" doing something a "star" obviously could never do (i.e., standing over the place where Jesus was, Matthew 2:9), the author of Matthew and his readers mistakenly believed that the stars really are either small points of light that can be manipulated light flashlights, or were angels, either of which view is clearly error.

Wallace continues:
He was baptized by John the Baptist, taught and had a “ministry” on earth
He was humble, unassuming and sinless
No, he disrespectfully replied to his own mother:

 3 When the wine ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine."
 4 And Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come." (Jn. 2:3-4 NAU)

The only reason Jesus heals a Gentile woman is because she cleverly answers his racist remark about how Gentiles are dogs and don't deserve to eat the bread of the children (Jews):
 22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."
 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."
 24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
 25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
 26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
 27 But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."

 28 Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once. (Matt. 15:22-28 NAU)
Inerrantist Christian scholar Craig Blomberg doesn't have easy solutions to the obvious racism:


15:25–28 The woman merely repeats her plea for help but also kneels. Whatever her intention, Matthew will see some kind of worship here. Jesus pursues the question of the distinction between Jews and Gentiles (v. 26). Jews frequently insulted Gentiles by calling them “dogs,”— the wild, homeless scavengers that roamed freely in Palestine. But the diminutive form here (kynarion rather than kyōn) suggests a more affectionate term for domestic pets, particularly since these dogs eat under the children’s table.80 Even at best, Jesus’ remarks still strike the modern reader as condescending. Jesus apparently wants to demonstrate and stretch this woman’s faith. The “children” must then refer to Israel and the “bread” to the blessings of God on the Jews, particularly through Jesus’ healing ministry.
Blomberg, C. (2001, c1992). Vol. 22: Matthew (electronic ed.). 
Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (Page 244). 
Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

Wallace continues:
He spoke the words of God and taught the Sermon on the Mount
The Sermon on the Mount is found in Matthew chapters 5-7.  The very similar Sermon on the Plain is found in Luke 6.  None of this is found in Mark.  If Matthew and Luke are telling the truth about what Jesus said, Mark surely knew that Jesus preached such things, even more so if the early traditions saying Mark was a companion of Peter are correct.  Mark would be no more likely to "choose to exclude" these clearly important sermons of Christ than would any inerrantist alive today, therefore, these sermons are absent from Mark the earliest gospel, likely because Mark didn't believe Jesus taught such things.
Ointment was poured on Jesus’ head
He was unjustly treated and condemned by men
On the contrary, the only time you hear Jesus backpeddling and conveniently insisting that his "kingdom" is not of this world, is when he is confronted at his trial about rumors that he has been calling himself the king of the Jews (John 18:36), a thing that would count as insurrection and warranting the death-penalty. Apparently he was a true insurrectionist, and only gave his claims a "spiritual" or "not of this world" application in a trial setting where the literal interpretation of his claims would render his execution certain.
He was whipped, suffered and was crucified
This all took place under the government of Pontius Pilate and Herod the Tetrarch was king
Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected
I'm willing to debate any apologist any time on Jesus' resurrection.
He had a physical resurrection body
That's irrelevant, you think he could make his body disappear into thin air, so trifling about what magic resurrected people are able to do is both stupid and childish.   I often wonder how many adult Christians are still scared of the monster under the bed.
He appeared to Peter and the others after the resurrection
Most Christian scholars say the resurrection appearance narrative in Mark the earliest gospel (i.e., Mark 16:9-20, the so-called "long ending") wasn't written by Mark and is a textual corruption.  If this majority scholarly view is correct, the earliest gospel thus ended at 16:8, and thus did not tell the reader anything about a risen Christ actually appearing to anybody.  The fear of the women in v. 8 would be reverential awe, not horrified alarm, therefore, ending at v. 8 does not constitute ending on a sour note.  Since Mark ends at 16:8 after saying an angel proclaimed Christ's resurrection, the shorter ending is quite fitting and natural, and is only unacceptable to inerrantists who have been reading the longer detailed versions of the ending in the other gospels for decades, and just cannot imagine that somebody living 2,000 years ago might actually not care as much as modern day apologists about bowling over the skeptics.

And regardless, even if we assume Mark's original ending forthrightly stated "the disciples went to Galilee where they saw the risen Lord", this earliest of gospels would then only give a primitive resurrection appearance narrative that lacks details, so that the more detailed versions in the later gospels (Matthew 28, Luke 24, John 20, 21) still look like the result of fictional embellishments over time.
He encouraged the disciples to touch and He ate with the disciples
The disciples were convinced by the resurrection appearances and were fearless after seeing
the risen Christ
Bullshit, the risen Christ orders THEM to take the gospel to the Gentiles (Matthew 28:19), yet if we can trust Paul in Galatians 2:9, they simply handed off the Gentile ministry to Paul wholesale, and continued to intentionally confine their own ministries solely to the "circumcision" or the Jews, thus bluntly violating their divinely given orders.  The apostles were anything but "amazingly transformed" by this risen Christ.

For example, Peter would eat with Gentiles, but when leaders from the Jewish faction of the church (i.e., "men from James") came to town, suddenly, he stopped eating with Gentiles, fearing to contradict the more legalistic views of the Jewish leaders (Galatians 2:12).

Again, the only biblical, information on James the lord's brother is that he stayed in Jerusalem and headed up the church there, with no indication at all that he wished to take the gospel to the Gentiles.

We are supposed to believe that all 11 original disciples saw the risen Christ and were mightily transformed, yet the book of Acts completely ignores most of them (Bartholomew, Matthias, Thomas, etc).  Yet if we are to believe these others also led Spirit filled ministries including the writing of divinely inspired epistles, etc, as today's Christians think happened,  we would naturally expect Luke, the "careful historian" to have found such realities too irresistible to leave out of his history of the early church.  Seems pretty clear that the reason Acts doesn't say shit about most of the other apostles is because they were so unimpressed with Jesus' 'resurrection', they slipped into obscurity by choice.
Jesus returned to God the Father
That's right...Jesus "ascended" (Acts 1:9-11).  Jesus and his biographers clearly believed that heaven was "up there", in total contradiction to the views of today's conservative Christians who insist that heaven is not "up there", but is rather a different dimension.  Nothing prevented God from enlightening the apostles to actual reality, so it is far from clear that God is merely accomodating their faulty views.  It's much more likely that these 1st century authors seriously believed that heaven was "up there".    By the way, the end of Luke 24 gives the reader every reason to think Jesus' resurrection and ascension took place on the same day, Easter Sunday, that is, leaving no room to suppose that 40 days parted the resurrection from the ascension (Acts 1:3).
He is our only Master and the Son of God
All things are subject to Jesus and all creation belongs to Him
He is the “Door,” the “Bread of Life,” and the “Eternal Word”
Jesus is our “Savior”, “Lord” and “God”
Faith in Christ’s work on the cross saves us
But Jesus was clearly forgiving sin and basing salvation upon works before he died on the cross.  You cannot get rid of the original legalistic form of the gospel by saying his death on the cross instituted a new covenant of grace where salvation is obtained now solely as a gift of God...because the risen Christ said the gospel to the Gentiles was exactly the same as the gospel he required his original apostles to obey (the part of the Great Commission most people miss, Matthew 28:20).  So regardless of what you conclude about the theological significance of Jesus' death on the cross, you cannot correctly obey the risen Lord unless you view your salvation as something to be earned, exactly as Jesus taught:
 17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:17-20 NAU)
 Everybody accepts the hermenutic of "immediate context", and in the immediate context, Jesus goes on to stress the importance of fulfilling both letter and spirit of the Law...not within a thousand miles of that "saved by grace" easy believeism taught by Paul.  There's no mystery whatever why today's fundamentalist more often quote Paul on "how to get saved", than Jesus.

 Wallace continues:
This salvation and forgiveness are gifts of grace from God
Wrong, the legalistic gospel Jesus preached (Matthew 5:19) is also the gospel for all future Gentile followers (Matthew 28:20).  At least Matthew himself thought so, since he provides for Gentiles a long gospel full of Jesus' legalistic teachings to the Jews.

Furthermore, that last verse justifies taking a razor and cutting out of your bible everything except the 4 gospels.  The gospel for future Gentiles was defined by the risen Jesus in Matthew 28:20 as the things he had taught his original apostles.  You already have that in the 4 canonical gospels, so Paul's letters are best viewed as nothing more than unnecessary complications best avoided.  Indeed, how exactly would your spiritual growth be stunted in the least if you excluded from you life everything in the NT except the 4 gospels?

Gee, maybe you'd slide into sexual sin because you'd no longer have access to Romans 9?

Maybe you'd start thinking skepticism was justified because you can no longer read the book of Revelation?

Wallace continues:
Jesus will judge the living and the dead

The facts about Jesus were written early and repeated often; they haven’t changed over time. We can be confident we have an accurate, unaltered record of Jesus’ life because it was written early enough to be fact-checked by those who were actually there (as Paul claimed in 1 Corinthians 15:6),
 Sorry, Wallace, but Corinth was several hundred miles away from Jerusalem, where the original resurrection eyewitnesses and these alleged "500 witnesses" were.



 Source:  http://blackwooduc.org.au/paulsworld-map/


 Paul must have known it was highly unlikely for any of his followers living in Corinth to desire to go away fro the families and jobs and suffer the time, expense and dangers of first-century traveling over hundreds of miles, just to find out whether Paul's claims about some eyewitnesses were consistent with what the eyewitnesses themselves were saying.  In those days, there was little or no welfare.  You stop working, your family starves.  While wealthy people might have the luxury to put forth such gargantuan effort to fact-check like this, the vast majority of the Corinthians, whom Paul himself characterizes as poor slobs (1st Corinthians 1:26), would be unlikely to do so.  It would be like me telling a homeless man in Seattle that flying elephants really exist in Nevada, and he can travel 700 miles to Nevada to check it out.

In fact, it is more than likely that whenever a Corinthian person wished to travel to Jerusalem, they would travel westward and go all the way around the globe to get there, which means Paul must have known that the Corinthians would have to travel more than 23,000 miles just to check up on this "500 witnesses saw Jesus alive" factoid.  I am the smartest historian and bible scholar in the world.



Once again, Wallace has a seriously difficult time convincing anybody except Christians that his apologetic arguments are forceful.

Jason Engwer doesn't appreciate the strong justification for skepticism found in John 7:5

Bart Ehrman, like thousands of other skeptics, uses Mark 3:21 and John 7:5 to argue that Jesus' virgin birth (VB) is fiction.  Jason Eng...