Sunday, July 9, 2017

Rebuttal to James Patrick Holding's "Tactitus-Test"

Holding has posted a video to update his former Shattering the Christ-Myth book entry on the issue of Tacitus' infamous reference to Christ.

Here are the problems I have with his update:

First, he admits, without giving any sign in the video that he is being sarcastic, that one of the tests he uses to decide whether an atheist's writings are worthy to read, is how they deal with the Tacitus passage.

His exact words are:
"One of my chief gauges for whether an atheist is worth any attention,
is their treatment of the reference to Jesus in Tacitus' Annals"(video at 0:19 ff)
 The tag for the video reads:
Published on Jul 7, 2017  
A suggestion for dispensing with fundy atheist books
 
Holding's criterion here is absurd:  a) scholars sometimes have much good to say even if they fumble on what you think is a basic truth.  You don't ask whether they deserve attention, you ask what their specific argument is and how they backed it up; b) under Holding's logic, an atheist would be justified to say Holding is not worth attention, because Holding so egregiously defies ALL biblical scholars who agree with the plain NT prohibitions against  filthy communication, jesting and slander:
 3 But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;
 4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. (Eph. 5:3-4 NAU)


 21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.
 23 "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." (Mk. 7:21-23 NAU)


 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. (Eph. 4:31 NAU)

8 But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. (Col. 3:8 NAU)
I document Holding's guilt in disobeying these things elsewhere on this blog.

I also explain there that since Holding talks filthy even to other Christians, he cannot escape this criticism by saying those bible verses are limited to in-house Christian discussions.

The point is that if Holding is going to assert that an atheist's failure to get basic shit like Tacitus right, rationally justifies the Christian to give the atheist no "attention", then he has to agree that atheists are justified under the same logic to be equally dismissive toward professing bible-believing Christians who get basic Christian morality wrong...which would mean his logic justifies atheists in refusing to consider anything Holding has to say.

Holding may quibble that the two situations are not the same, but if so, there's more:  Under Holding's logic, the atheist would be justified to give no attention to Christians who do worse than get basic Christian morality wrong, but who are intentionally deceptive and obstinately refuse correction for years after it has become obvious that they were in the wrong.

Has Holding ever been intentionally deceptive and obstinately refused to correct himself after it became obvious that he was in the wrong?  

Yes.  Ever since 1998, Holding has insisted in numerous discussions and articles that the bible scholarship of the Context Group is accurate and cutting-edge, and supports his belief that modern-day Christians have biblical justification to talk in mean nasty insulting shaming demeanor toward anybody who publicly attacks Christianity.  So far, I am the only person on the internet to have exposed the fact that the Context Group has totally disowned Holding, more than once, in no uncertain terms, and they have declared his most comprehensive effort to justify insulting demeanor, to be an "obvious perversion" of Context Group work in general, founder Richard Rohrbaugh's work in particular, and that it perverts the New Testament as well, to such an extreme degree that Rohrbaugh doesn't even find Holding's magnum opus so much as worthy of a response.  Holding was made aware since 2008 of the Context Group's low view of him personally and professionally, yet for whatever reason, he has refused to modify his God-wants-you-to-talk-shit magnum opus or delete its references to Context Group scholarship

Is Holding just extremely forgetful of the obvious, despite multiply repeated notices/warnings these last few years?  Or does Holding have a serious sin of pride that prevents him from having common decency and basic honesty?

What is worse?

The atheist who gets Tacitus wrong, or the Christian apologist who refuses to acknowledge the truth that he has 'obviously perverted' the work of the very scholars he uses to support his most cherished belief?

If Holding is going to dismiss an atheist because of a single blunder in a basic area, wouldn't an atheist have even more rational warrant to dismiss Holding where it is proved Holding has dishonestly continued using scholars that he already knows have asserted accused him of making 'obvious perversion' of their work?

Getting Tacitus wrong is far more likely due to accident or simple ignorance, since his infamous reference to Jesus has produced an avalanche of scholarship advocating both Christian and skeptical views.

Getting basic honesty and common decency wrong for more than 20 years, is far less likely to be a case of innocent mistake/oversight.

So...does Holding agree that, if one can show that he really is the dishonest scumbag most atheists think he is, one will have sufficient rational warrant to dismiss everything else he has to say?

Holding in the video says when he peruses an atheist book, he immediately looks for their treatment of the reference by Tacitus.  Again, Holding appears to be losing his mind...there is no logical or rational connection between getting Tacitus wrong, and being so stupid that one is unworthy of any further attention.

Worse, Holding encourages the Christian watching the video to do likewise:
"I'd like to recommend the Tacitus test to you as a way to figure out whether a book is worthy taking seriously or not.  If a fundy atheist does botched job like this one, then you can pretty much ignore anything else he has to say, and save yourself the time and the pain of reading his work." (video at 2:20 ff)
 I guess there's a new low in the new era of Christian scholarship.  Thanks but no thanks.  I won't ask whether a blunder in a basic area justifies me to give no attention to somebody, I'll instead simply ask what their specific argument against my belief is, and how well they supported it.

Holding, true to form, just cannot provide reasons why atheists are wrong, in this video he has to flash a picture of a roll of toilet paper and characterize the atheist work as not even worthy for wiping one's ass (video at 0:45 ff)

Holding then criticizes a 30-year-minister-turned atheist for invoking R.T. France and other authorities for the proposition that Tacitus scholars largely believe Tacitus' source was mere "popular understanding".  Holding then says this is not how most Tacitean scholars view the matter.  What he doesn't tell the viewer is that R.T. France is a Christian, and professor of NT, whose commentary to this effect is hosted at leaderu web site that also hosts Bill Craig's stuff.

There, France says:
(a) The brief notice in Tacitus Annals xv.44 mentions only his title, Christus, and his execution in Judea by order of Pontius Pilatus. Nor is there any reason to believe that Tacitus bases this on independent information-it is what Christians would be saying in Rome in the early second century. Suetonius and Pliny, together with Tacitus, testify to the significant presence of Christians in Rome and other parts of the empire from the mid-sixties onwards, but add nothing to our knowledge of their founder. No other clear pagan references to Jesus can be dated before AD 150/1/, by which time the source of any information is more likely to be Christian propaganda than an independent record.

Gee, will Mr. Holding assert that because Christian R.T. France got Tacitus wrong, the Christians he instructed before his death would have been wise to drop his classes?  Why should an atheist's mistake on Tacitus justify thinking they have nothing worthy of note, but Christian scholars who make the same mistake, might still have something worthy of note?  Nah, Mr. Holding just has a very stupid inconsistent criterion for truth, which he employs or doesn't employ as expediency dictates.

The fact that France was a Christian scholar means he was predisposed to accept the Tacitus-reference as gospel.  When a Christian doesn't agree that some Christian argument is forceful, its probably because they found evidence sufficient to overcome their pro-Christian predisposition, especially when the Christian is a scholar who puts he reasons in the arena, and not just an average liberal Christian with private views.


Holding will have an extremely difficult time locating properly qualified Christian scholars who agree with  him that it is a sign of good scholarship to toss another scholar's book out the window, because she fumbled a point that you think is basic.  Then again, having absolutely zero bible scholarship to back his views, has never bothered a man laden with the sin of pride like Holding.  The fact that no scholars support many of his points just assures him that God has chosen him to be the first to see these deep theological mysteries.

By the way, as an atheist bible critic, I overcome the alleged secular references to Jesus, with Paul's infamously unexpected and near total lack of interest in the historical Jesus.  Paul's silence on the historical Jesus is far more grave than the weakenesses of the secular references to Jesus. It doesn't matter what conclusion is warranted from Paul's near total silence;  whether Jesus didn't exist, or existed as a far less dramatic person than the gospels depict, either theory does fatal violence to fundy Christianity.

I also defeat the implications of the secular Jesus references with arguments that there are hopeless contradictions between Acts and the gospels.  It doesn't matter which source contained the fiction, either theory fatally injures the inerrancy doctrine. Check back to see my updates to that effect. 

Holding next says Tacitean scholars do not share France's view, but let's clarify:  France didn't say this reference is a forgery...he said Tacitus wrote it and was likely relying on second-hand or "popular understanding".  With that clarification on record, then either Holding is a liar, or unacceptably ignorant.

17 years ago, Jeffery Jay Lowder documented that while the scholars mostly think the passage authentic, some of them harbor France's view that Tacitus' source was something other than independent fact-checking or the imperial archives:
Scholarly debate surrounding this passage has been mainly concerned with Tacitus' sources and not with the authorship of the passage (e.g., whether it is an interpolation) or its reliability.[83] Various scenarios have been proposed to explain how Tacitus got his information. One possibility is that Tacitus learned the information from another historian he trusted (e.g., Josephus). Another possibility (suggested by Harris) is that he obtained the information from Pliny the Younger. According to Harris, "Tacitus was an intimate friend and correspondent of the younger Pliny and was therefore probably acquainted with the problems Pliny encountered with the Christians during his governorship in Bithynia - Pontus (c. A.D. 110-112)."[84] (Defenders of this position may note that Tacitus was also governing in Asia in the very same years as Pliny's encounters with Christians [112-113], making communication between them on the event very likely.)[85] Norman Perrin and Dennis C. Duling mention a related possibility; they state that Tacitus' information "is probably based on the police interrogation of Christians."[86] Yet another possibility (suggested by Habermas and defended by McDowell and Wilson) is that Tacitus obtained the information from official documents.[87] (I shall say more about this possibility below.) It is also possible that the information was common knowledge. Finally, there is the view (defended by Wells, France, and Sanders) that Tacitus simply repeated what Christians at the time were saying.[88] The bottom line is this: given that Tacitus did not identify his source(s), we simply don't know how Tacitus obtained his information. Holding himself admits, "Truthfully, there is no way to tell" where Tacitus obtained his information about Jesus.[89] Therefore, we can't use Annals XV.47 as independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus.
There's impressive support for saying the majority scholarly view generally agrees with France's view that something other than objective fact checking the historical existence of Christ in the Roman archives, was the reason Tacitus asserted the existence of Christ, even if the other scholars don't argue the exact same way France did.

Notice:  France's view is also held by Wells and Sanders.  So when Holding says in his video that France's assessment is not shared by anyone with any level of expertise in Tacitus, what he means is that if a scholar agrees with France's assessment of Tactius, Holding thus thinks said scholar doesn't have any level of expertise in Tacitus.

Holding says Tacitean scholars do not characterize Tacitus as somebody who would be sufficiently blasé in his sourcework so as to assert somebody's existence solely because of popular understanding, but why does Holding think an ancient historian basing his view on popular understanding is blasé?  Does he think all 1st century historians didn't represent something as fact unless they exhausted their own first-hand investigation of the official sources?

How did Matthew know about the allegedly false story spread by the Jews recorded in Matthew 28:15?  Did he conduct interviews with the original Christ-hating Jews who started the rumor, and thus subject himself to certain death for being a follower of the executed insurrectionist?  Or is Matthew, like so many other places in his gospel, depending on popular tradition (Christian or otherwise) as his source?

According to Metzger, some of the early copyists inserted material that could only have been sourced in popular understanding.  See John 5:4.  Other Christian scholars, who espouse inerrancy agree:

The reader should recognize that vv. 3b–4 (present in the KJV) are a later scribal addition to the story, probably inserted into the text by an early copyist who believed in such mythical manifestations and who sought to support the man’s belief pattern by such a statement. In terms of an explanation it is possible that the man’s theory here may have been based on the occurrence of an interesting natural phenomenon in which at high water times the pool apparently was infused by a periodic influx of spring water that stirred the pool with excess water.

Borchert, G. L. (2001, c1996). Vol. 25A: John 1-11 (electronic ed.).

Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (Page 232).
Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.
All scholars agree Luke was not with the original apostles before Jesus died, yet Luke reports the temptations of Jesus which happened before his ministry began.  Luke 4.  The bible never expresses or implies that any disciple was with Jesus, or was even a disciple, at the time of these temptations, so Luke can only have known about these stories, at best, by original disciples telling him what Christ told them.  That's called 3rd-hand hearsay.

Does Holding still think 3rd-hand hearsay is blasé?  Of course not.  If the bible said 2+2=5, the problem will be with the ungodly world for being spiritually dead, since for Holding, the bible having errors is like God being an atheist...there's a fixed natural law logically preventing any errors in the bible.  As as well there should be, because fighting critics of inerrancy does what preaching the prosperity gospel does, it causes idiots to donate their cash, and as we all know, the cash is what its all about.  Holding could very easily pay for his ministry by himself and his own work, but perhaps he thinks the "you should tithe" parts of the bible (1st Tim. 5:18) are more important than the "I didn't accept charity from you" parts. 2nd Thess. 3:8

One thing we can be sure of, Holding will not be quoting any properly credentialed Christian scholars who agree with him that noting one error in a basic area justifies tossing the entire work in the garbage.  Common sense dictate what proper objective peer-review would be, and Holding has done nothing here but hit an all-time low.

Holding is apparently fearful that if his followers read a bible-critic's book all the way through, they will encounter significantly weighty justification to abandon the faith (i.e., stop tithing to him), and having discovered that he fails to defend the faith convincingly, has resorted to the new low of trying to give his followers reasons to turn away from good critical arguments before testing them on the merits.

Once again, how much is implied when an atheist gets Tacitus wrong one time in a single book, and how much is implied when a Christian apologist gets his own favorite Context Group scholars wrong for 20 years running, and continues thereafter despite knowing they have disowned him for more than 5 years?

Only a deluded follower of Holding would trifle that the atheist mistake has greater potential to mislead.


 Somebody pointed out the obvious and Holding tried to parry:
Maybe I'm just playing devil's avocate here, Mr. Holding, but why would an atheist treating Tacitus with flippant derision be proof that the rest of what he/she has to say isn't worth reading? That's not to say that what you said isn't true; it's just that maybe they might have done a passable job on scholarship, but dropped the ball on things like their research into Tacitus. Not judging; I'm just curious.


tektontv
I'm being a bit satirical; hence the end comment. But in general, I have found that this is indeed a good measure for the lack of scholarship in the books as a whole; it can serve as a convenience for a typical reader that has other things to do. That said, as someone who does this as a job, I also check a few other markers and paragraphs in my real-world treatments. The thing is, I could have picked any one of a number of markers and said the same thing. :P

Then by Holding's logic, dismissing everything else he has to say without testing it on the merits, is justified because he violates even more basic notions like honesty, integrity and consistency, and he violates them specifically in the area of his use of scholarship.  So to be consistent, Holding will have to agree that if one finds him making errors in such basic things, dismissing all else he has to say "can serve as a convenience for a typical reader that has other things to do."

Holding doesn't let on that he does more fact-checking than his video suggests, until he is called on the carpet for how silly it would be to employ his recommendation as prescribed.

I also note that because Holding seems to think he is above the typical reader who has other things to do, he must think that the average person is not intellectually obligated to check out a criticism as thoroughly as he does.  Does he extend that logic to atheists?  If an atheist is not a scholar but a typical reader that has other things to do, can he do what Holding's followers all do, sneer his criticisms at his enemies, than walk away and justifiably avoid discussion?

Demolishing Triablogue, part 3: Engwer's fallacy of using bible inerrancy as a hermeneutic

Jason Engwer makes an unexpected admission that he cannot defend the historicity of the virgin birth without engaging in eisogesis.  This is my reply to


(snip)

...I'm not denying that terminology such as we find in Romans 1:3 and John 1:45 is favorable to Lincoln's position. What I'm saying is that we need to be careful in discerning the degree to which such evidence favors his view. If all we had to go by were the letters most commonly attributed to Paul, would we conclude that Jesus was born of a virgin? No. We'd conclude that he most likely was a natural son of a man who was a descendant of David. The same goes for Mark's gospel. And the Johannine literature. And Hebrews. Similarly, 2 Peter 3:15-16 implies agreement with the Pauline literature on this subject, and James, 1 Peter, and Jude don't discuss a virgin birth. But there's a lot of other evidence to consider, including much that Lincoln doesn't address.
Jason, for what reason(s) do you refuse to interpret Paul's statement about Jesus being "seed of David" apart from the gospels of Matthew and Luke?  Is it true that you use the doctrine of bible inerrancy as a tool of interpretation (i.e., no interpretation of a bible verse can be correct, except one that harmonizes it with the rest of the bible)?

Is the case for bible inerrancy so good that it deserves to be exalted in the mind of the investigator to the status of governing hermeneutic?  My investigation into that doctrine leads me to conclude that because so many Christian scholars deny it, and they all disagree with each other about its scope and extent, bible inerrancy has nowhere near the universal acclaim that other tools of interpretation have, such as "grammar", "immediate context", and "genre".  The latter are affirmed as objective tools of interpretation by all serious bible scholars, the former is a hotly contested doctrine that not all spiritually alive people are convinced even exists.

I therefore conclude that bible inerrancy does not deserve to be exalted in our minds to the status of governing hermeneutic.  Consequently,  it does not make sense for you to assert or imply that an interpretation of a Pauline phrase that puts  him in conflict with other biblical authors, is surely an incorrect interpretation.

Therefore, you will have to do something more to falsify  the naturalistic interpretation of "seed of David" in Romans 1:3, than simply complain that such interpretation would contradict what Matthew and Luke have to say about Jesus' link to humanity.  Running afoul of bible inerrancy is about as frightful as running afoul of Benny Hinn.

It would appear that, in light of your admission quoted above, you are obligated to show that no understanding of Paul's meaning in Romans 1:3 can be correct except one that harmonizes it with the gospels of Matthew and Luke.

With other conservative apologists such as Licona admitting that the zombie resurrection in Matthew 27:52 is non-literal "special effects", and that John's preference for artistry over historical truth causes him to conflict with Mark, you will likely never close the door on the possibility that Matthew's virgin birth narrative is, like the zombie resurrection story, a case of pure fiction with no textual indicators to allow the reader to tell where the history ends and the wishful thinking begins.  The fact that other conservatives insist Licona's view amounts to a denial of inerrancy, means when we atheists see it the same way, this is not due to our being spiritually dead.  Indeed, Matthew leaves no clues in the text that the zombie resurrection story in 27:51 ff is any less literal than the crucifixion he mentioned in v. 50, so if he really was going from the historical to the non-historical, he did so in a way that was misleading at best and deceptive at worst.


Saturday, July 8, 2017

Demolishing Triablogue, part 2: Yes, Steve Hays, the virgin birth is poorly attested, Mark's silence screams

Less than a week after I showed up at Triablogue to challenge Engwer and others on their Christian claims, somebody there banned me, but did so in a way that caused my posts to disappear while leaving up the reply posts made by Engwer and others, so that the only part of my posts that survived was the part they chose to quote in their replies.

This is akin to a Christian who posts his unedited video recording of a live atheist-Christian debate to youtube, but after deciding he doesn't wish to interact with the atheist debator's remarks, removes it and posts an edited version of the video that removes all the atheist's speaker's remarks, except for a few that the Christian doesn't feel threatened by.

 Anyway, what follows is my direct point-by point reply to Steve Hays's post, followed by a justification for the argument from silence and why it is powerful in light of Mark's silence on the virgin birth.

1. A stereotypical objection to the virgin birth is that it's only attested in two of the four Gospels. Likewise, Paul is silent on the subject.
The more detailed form of the objection is that if the virgin birth was believed to be historical truth by any NT writers beyond Matthew and Luke, those other authors would surely have mentioned it, since they clearly intend to exactly "repeat" truths that their originally intended addressees were presumed to already trust in.
A potential problem with stereotypical objections is how they condition people who view an issue. If an issue is routinely framed in a particular way, it may not occur to people to think outside that framework.
It's not that complicated, Steve.  All that needs to be done is to show the proper criteria for justifying an argument from silence, and then showing that the silence of the NT authors outside of Matthew and Luke on the virgin birth, fulfills that criteria.
2. Before getting to my main point, Paul's silence is to be expected. He was an adult living in Jerusalem at the time of Christ's public ministry. It's hardly surprising that he talks about events so close to his own time and place, in the life of Christ. By contrast, the birth of Christ probably took place several years before Paul was born.
That is not biblically sound.  Yes, the birth of Christ took place several years before Paul was born, but Paul  refers to the birth of Jesus nonetheless in Galatians 4:4.  Since Paul here refers to an event in Jesus life preceding Paul's life by a few years, then, contrary to your argument, Paul cannot be presumed to stay silent about things in Jesus' life merely because they happened a few years before Paul was born.   You'll have to find something other than "it's old news!" to explain Paul's silence.
3 Apropos (1), I'd recast the issue. If anything, what's striking is not that the virgin birth wasn't recorded in more than two Gospels, but that's recorded at all. Reporting the circumstances of his conception poses a dilemma.
It also provides "reason" to believe Jesus is the son of God, so there's clearly more than mere "concern to tell the historical truth" in the motives of Matthew and Luke to tell this story.
In the nature of the case, a NT author can't mention the virgin birth without simultaneously informing his readers that Mary was pregnant out of wedlock. After all, you can't have one without the other.
I don't see your point, Matthew and Luke make it clear that this particular out-of-wedlock pregnancy was the will of God.  They solved the dilemma before it had a chance to exist. 
But the moment he says Mary was pregnant out of wedlock, that opens a can of worms. Only people who are already Christian believe the story of the virgin birth.
And as you'll find out later in my post, Matthew's likely intended readership was not unbelievers or unbelieving Jews, but Jews who already had a Christian faith.  If that theory is more likely than the theory that he wrote for unbelieving Jews, then Matthew was telling the virgin birth story only to Christians, and as such, your attempt to create a dilemma so you can argue Mathtew and Luke only mention the story because it is true, fails.
By contrast, people who aren't Christian are inclined to view the virgin birth as a cover story for a prenuptial scandal.
And since Matthew didn't write the virgin birth story for the purpose of convincing unbelievers, there is no potentially embarassing situation to speak of, and hence, no basis for an argument that Matthew and Luke wrote solely out of concern for historical truth.
Indeed, that was Joseph's initial reaction. When he discovered that she was pregnant, he was planning to divorce her, on the assumption that she had a child by another man.
Ok, so are you writing this solely for Christian readers of your blog?  Apparently so, since you know perfectly well a skeptic is not going to presume the historical accuracy of anything in the virgin birth story, as you just did.
So why would Matthew and Luke record the virgin birth unless they thought it happened?
Maybe for the same reason Pindar wrote 450 years previously that Zeus took the form of a golden mist at the time he got the virgin Danae pregnant?
You might say the reported the virgin birth despite the virgin birth. For surely they knew that by recording that story, their account invited a contrary interpretation.
So by your logic, surely Pindar knew that by recording Zeus getting Danae pregnant without taking away her virginity, he invited a contrary interpretation, hence he only told the story by constraint of the historical truth?  Either way, Matthew only "invites" a contrary interpretation if he intended his story to be used to evangelize unbelievers.  He didn't, and you offer no compelling evidence that he did.
By narrating the virginal conception of Christ, they were starting a fire they couldn't extinguish. Enemies of the faith will seize on that to discredit Jesus.
 A first century orthodox Jew would have to be a fool to think the virgin birth is true because the Christians say it's true.  Matthew surely knew the Jews, who hated Christ more particularly than anybody else, surely wouldn't be persuaded by his simply putting down in writing the kind of miracle story the Jews would surely balk at.  Luke writes for a Theophilus so that he may be sure of the things he has been previously taught about Jesus.  Matthew and Luke intended no other original audience except Christian believers.  Since there is no scandal to be inferred from the original audience of these two gospels, your scandal-based argument falls flat.
They will say this is a transparent alibi to camouflage the fact that Mary had premarital sex. Not only would that stigmatize the mother, but stigmatize the illegitimate child.
Perhaps so, but again, you need to worry about who Matthew and Luke intended as their original target audience.  First argue that Matthew and Luke were intended by the authors to be used to evangelize unbelievers. Until you do that, you are seeing potential scandals where no such potential exists.
So, if you think about it, NT writers had to overcome a disincentive to report it at all, since the very mention of it would play into the hands of their enemies.
The risk of ridicule is counterbalanced by the edifying nature of the story for existing Christians.  Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith also had to overcome a disincentive to publicly proclaim himself finder of additional inspired scripture, but without more, that argument hardly gets near suggesting his motives were honest. False prophets are often willing to suffer greatly because they are so deluded and obstinate.
They only record it because that's what happened, even though it hands enemies of the faith a propaganda coup. Sometimes you have to tell a true story knowing that people will twist the truth.
Thank you for confirming, by how quickly you draw your conclusion that the story is true, that you didn't write this for skeptics.  If you wish to re-write it for the purpose of refuting skeptics, let me know, and I'll respond to that too.
4. Now, a critic might object that my explanation misses the point. Given the rumors of a prenuptial scandal, they had to say something to squelch the rumors.
I don't know any skeptics who seriously believe the purpose of Christians concocting the virgin birth fiction was to persuade non-Christian Jews that the rumors of Mary's out-of-wedlock pregnancy was nevertheless from god.   That just makes first-century Christians more gullible than most skeptics assert.
But there are problems with that objection. For instance:
 i) That would be a counterproductive alibi. Rather than draw attention away from the specter of a prenuptial scandal, it would draw attention to the specter of a prenuptial scandal. Hostile readers will view this as a coverup.
Which only has force if you assume, as you appear to be doing, that Matthew and Luke intended their stories to be used to evangelize or refute non-Christians.  The minute you try to defeat this objection by saying "yeah, that was some of their purpose" then you make Matthew and Luke equally as gullible as the rest of the first-century laity.  Paul apparently had great difficulties persuading many Jews despite his doing so involving heated lengthy arguments.  It doesn't make much sense to assume Matthew and Luke thought their writing down a miracle story would suffice to evangelize unbelievers.  Therefore, it is more than likely that these two NT authors did not intend any other original audience, except Christians.  In that case, they were not writing to squelch rumors.  Again, your "they-wouldn't-say-such-scandalous-thing-if-it-weren't-true!" theory is largely unpersuasive, primarily because it blindly assumes, without any evidence or argument, that unbelievers were part of Matthew's and Luke's originally intended target audience.
ii) If the Gospel writers were attempting to conceal a prenuptial scandal, and if they felt free to invent a cover story, why not just say Jesus was conceived after Mary and Joseph got married? After all, the Incarnation doesn't require a virgin birth. The sinlessness of Jesus doesn't require a virgin birth.
Why didn't Pindar just say Zeus took a form "different than human" when he got Danae pregnant?  After all, the conception of Perseus doesn't require Zeus take the form of a golden mist. And again, since I deny the gospel authors were trying to invent a cover story, your questions here don't threaten my own basis for unbelief toward the virgin birth story.
If some people find the story of the virgin birth fishy, there's nothing suspicious about saying he was born to married parents. So that would be a better cover story.
But the motive of Matthew and Luke involved more than merely inventing a cover story.  Their details in the virgin birth narratives also strongly "support" the idea that Jesus is God, the Son of God, and Savior.
5. But a critic might say that misses the point. If Mary was known to be pregnant out of wedlock, then it's too late for Matthew and Luke to fabricate a cover story that denies that fact. The best they can do is to spray paint it with miraculous whitewash. But there are problems with that objection, even on its own grounds:
i) People who deny the virgin birth typically think Matthew and Luke were written about a century after the birth of Christ.
Then count me out.  My objections are persuasive even assuming Matthew and Luke finished the currently canonical form of their gospels 41 days after Jesus died.
They don't think Matthew or Luke had access to firsthand information about the circumstances surrounding his conception and birth. So what, exactly, is there to rationalize or cover up? By that late date, who knews any better what really happened?
Again, the virgin birth story doesn't just "cover" a sex scandal, it's details also "support" important doctrinal themes like Jesus being God, Son of God and Savior.
ii) Likewise, even if we take the historicity of Matthew and Luke far more seriously, how many people were really privy to the timing of Mary's pregnancy in relation to her engagement and marriage?
Again, I don't think the virgin birth narrative is a cover story.  I think it is mere fiction invented to "support" other gospel themes like Jesus being God, Son of God and Savior.  Good writers back then didn't just provide a bulleted list of factoids, they weaved romance and drama and scandal and unexpected stupidity and moral lessons around their "facts".  The later authors of the Christian pseudopigrapha must have learned the technique of embellishment from somewhere.
Other than some relatives and villagers, who else would know about it?
That depends on how much effort Christians in the first 20 years after Jesus death, went around advertising Jesus as Savior.  Acts contains a mixture of embellishment and fact., it does not suffice to explain any of these missing years.
Mary wasn't born famous. She was a nobody. She's one of those people who becomes retroactively famous in association with a famous person. Jesus himself only became relatively famous towards the end of his short life, and even then he was just a local celebrity at the time of his death.
What is this now, your third or fourth indication that you aren't writing to refute skeptics, but writing to people who presume the biblical facts about Mary and Jesus are true?
Had anyone heard of him outside some pockets in Palestine?
You have a knack for asking questions that you know no biblical or other history provides answers to.   It's called a question-framing fallacy, "First, a proper historical question must be operational-which is
merely to say that it must be resolvable in empirical terms."  Fischer at 38. Your question is not resolvable in empirical terms, unless you equate conjecture and speculation with "empirical terms", so it is a fallacious question.
So why assume, decades later–when Matthew and Luke were written–that there'd be a widespread rumor about the illegitimacy of Jesus?
I don't assume the virgin birth narrative was a cover story, because even as a skeptic, for the sake of argument, I think Matthew and Luke weren't quite that dumb.   Regardless, it could just as easily be that yes, there was some scandal going on about Mary being pregnant out of wedlock, and Matthew and Luke responded by limiting the story of the miraculous truth solely to Christian believers.  So the scandal interpretation can be true yet without implying that the story was told because it was true.  No, the Christians invented a miracle-story to explain the scandal, and their original intent was not to provide that explanation to anybody except other Christians.  You act as if Matthew was just screaming the virgin birth of Jesus in the Temple through a bullhorn in 34 a.d., but you have done exactly nothing to substantiate your view that either gospel author ever intended the story to convince the gainsayers.
iii) Presumably, the target audience for Matthew and Luke are people who don't already know about the life of Christ.
Then your presumption is false.  Only by assuming first-century people were embarrassingly more gullible than we are today, could we think Matthew seriously believed his writing down miracle stories about Jesus would be the least bit persuasive to non-Christians.  Then again, today's Christianity has some treacherously gullible people in it, as testified by the Pentecostals and TBN and KJV Onlyism and others.  So it remains at least a possibility that yes, Matthew and Luke, like gullible Christians today, seriously thought that publishing miracle stories about Jesus would convince non-Christians to believe.  And we have direct evidence, assuming apostolic authorship, that at least one apostle seriously thought mere storytelling was sufficient to compel faith.  See John 20:31.  Paul similarly thinks his written words would be sufficient to overcome the Judaizer arguments that caused his Galatian churches to abandon his gospel, Gal. 1:8-9.
So what would possess Matthew and Luke to introduce a cover story about the circumstances of his conception? That would create a problem that hadn't existed before in the mind of the reader. For the average reader would never have reason to suspect anything untoward unless Matthew and Luke gratuitously interject this subterfuge.
 I don't have a problem with gratuitous interjection.  That's what's happening every single time a gospel author says Jesus did a miracle.
Left to their druthers, I wouldn't expect any NT writer to mention the circumstances of Christ's conception if they could avoid it, since the story of the virgin birth will be used against them.

Again, you unreasonably place too much stock in the theory that Matthew and Luke were originally intended to evangelize unbelievers, when in fact you make no argument to that effect (you admit said presupposition is a "presumably"), and other evidence indicates it makes more sense to say they originally intended their gospels to do nothing more than edify and instruct those already in the Christian faith.
It's one of those dilemmas where doing the right thing looks like doing the wrong thing. What's striking, therefore, is that we have even one, much less two Gospels, that record the virgin birth. For they must do that despite the derision which that will provoke.
Why should be think telling the story was so compelling on Matthew and Luke, but not compelling for any other NT author?

You also ignore the fact that Jesus made clear that discipleship consists of future followers obeying all that HE had taught the original disciples, see that part of the Great Commission most people forget, Matthew 28:20.  Jesus never expressed or implied that his birth was in any way supernatural or that it had the slightest thing to do with the gospel, and when given the perfect opportunity to highlight his birth (Luke 11:27) he disagreed and insisted that things outside the issue of his mother's blessedness in giving birth to him, were the key to true blessedness (v. 28).  Skeptics can be confident that the virgin birth story is irrelevant to the gospel, they have god's word on it.

==================

That concludes my point-by-point reply to Hays, and I finish up with argument based on Mark's silence:

First, the main players at Triablogue are not free to say arguments from silence are automatically fallacious, for example, Engwer argues from the early patristic silence about Peter that Catholics are wrong to view Peter so highly.

Even Peter himself isn’t referred to as having papal authority among the early post-apostolic sources. Terence Smith explains:  “there is an astonishing lack of reference to Peter among ecclesiastical authors of the first half of the second century. He is barely mentioned in the Apostolic Fathers, nor by Justin and the other Apologists” (cited in Robert Eno, The Rise of the Papacy [Wilmington, Delaware: Michael Glazier, 1990], p. 15)   
Again we see Mr. Engwer engaging in an argument from silence...
Second, historians disagree on what exact criteria must be met for the argument from silence to be forceful.
Howell/:Prevenier assert the person creating the silence must a) have intended to give a full account and b) the author had no compelling reasons to leave a known fact out of his report:


Of course, an argument from silence can serve as presumptive evidence of the "silenced" event only if, as in this case, the person suppressing the information was in a position to have the information, and was purporting to give a full account of the story from which he omitted the crucial information, and if there were no compelling reasons why he should have omitted the information (other than the wish to conceal). Hence, it is usually a considerably greater leap to conclude that "silence" means "con¬cealment" than it was in the case of Shamir's selective omissions during his interview. In most cases, historians have to guess a bit more. They must presume that a suspected fact was an integral part of the story being re¬ported and so central a part of such a story that the reporter would auto¬matically have included it. That he did not becomes, then, presumptive proof that he was deliberately suppressing this piece of information.
the person suppressing the information was in a position to have the information
Under the fundamentalist assumption that Peter believed in the virgin birth story as true, and the other assumption that Mark wrote Peter's preaching, yes, Mark was in a position to "have" the virgin birth information, but because he is described as a "young man" (Mark 14:51), it is unlikely he knew of the virgin birth first-hand, but would only have known it second-hand. 

was purporting to give a full account of the story from which he omitted the crucial information
There are several reasons to characterize Mark as intending to provide a "full account" of Jesus:

First, Mark 1:1 characterizes its opening as the "beginning"  (Greek: ἀρχή) of the gospel.  Why would Mark characterize his opening as the "beginning" of the gospel?  Probably because where exactly in Jesus life the gospel "starts" was in dispute or could be misunderstood, and Mark's clarification helps end that dispute:  the gospel begins with John the Baptist baptizing Jesus in fulfillment of OT prophecy.

Second, according to standard lexicons, this Greek word means the first or first part.  Mark uses the same word in 13:8 to say that certain disasters will merely be the first of many, which means those initial disasters are to be considered the very first in the chain of disasters spoken of there.  In ἀρχή, God created people as male and female (Matthew 19:4), meaning, the very first persons were male/female. The only reason an apologist would deny the implications of cognate usage here is their prior commitment to biblical inerrancy, forcing them to insert a bit of wiggle room in the ἀρχή to allow legitimizing other gospels who start their beginning points earlier in Jesus' life than Mark did.  If they had no theological axe to grind, they would have no trouble believing the cognate usage is consistent and determinant.

Third, Mark 1:1 says it is the beginning of "the" gospel (Greek: τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, NA28, τοῦ is the definite article, its not just "a" gospel, but "the" gospel.  That is, if you want to know what "the" gospel of Jesus is, you get it by reading Mark's account of it). Again, Mark knew he could characterize his version as the beginning of "my" gospel, so why does he choose to employ the more dogmatic sounding definite article (i.e., he is giving "the" gospel)?  Most likely because he wants the reader to believe what he has written will sufficiently instruct them in gospel basics.  In other words, Mark didn't omit anything that was essential to the gospel.

Fourth, under the fundamentalist assumption that Papias is telling the truth about Mark's relation to Peter, then because Papias says Mark omitted from his gospel nothing that he heard Peter preach, a fundamentalist would be compelled to agree that Mark was intending to give a full account.  Richard Bauckham, sadly aware of what "omitted nothing" implies, weakly argues that this phrase was nothing more than literary convention, thus not literal, but a) to clarify, Papias doesn't say Mark omitted nothing from his gospel, he says Mark didn't omit from his gospel anything he heard Peter preach, , b) the literal interpretation of "omitted nothing" is supported by Papias' prior statement that Mark wrote down "whatever" he remembered of Peter's preaching;  c) the context in which Papias wrote "omitted nothing" is highly defensive of Mark's integrity and accuracy, so that the statement that he "omitted nothing", was likely intended to be taken as more significant than mere literary convention.

Sixth, Eusebius at H.E.6.14 says, on authority of 2nd century Clement of Alexandria, Peter's original audience requested that Mark write down Peter's preaching, and there is nothing in the context to suggest they only wanted a few, or certain specific subjects.  Those who have no theological axe to grind would take the statement to mean that Mark wrote down whatever he could remember of Peter's preaching.   Indeed, had you been one of the Roman citizens who heard and converted at Peter's preaching, how comprehensive would you want the written record of said preaching to be?

Seventh, yes, it's possible that Peter preached the virgin birth, but if so, questions are raised that fundies cannot easily answer:  If Peter preached the virgin birth, how could it be that Mark either didn't remember it, or remembered it but felt it wasn't as important as other gospel material Peter preached?  Are we to believe that Mark, whose theme was "Jesus is the Son of God", felt that other stories like the feeding of the crowds were more important than the shockingly unprecedented (so fundies say) circumstances of Christ's birth, which in Matthew and Luke strongly support the Markan theme that Jesus is the Son of God?

Eighth, some apologist will try to duck these problems by saying it is more likely Peter's preaching didn't preach the virgin birth in the first place, but a) you don't know of any statement in historical sources to that effect, you like the theory for no other reason than that it is the type of speculation that can get your ass out of a theological jam, nothing more; b) the consequence of employing the "Peter-didn't-preach-the-virgin-birth" is severe:  Mark's gospel is filled with gospel BASICS.  Peter was not preaching to seasoned theologians, but unbelievers who needed salvation.  So if Peter believed the virgin birth to be true, but didn't preach it to unbelievers, it is most likely because he didn't think the doctrine was a legitimate part of the gospel...which then puts him in disagreement with Matthew and Luke, who apparently think the virgin birth IS a part of the gospel.

Some apologist will say "no, Peter's silence only implies he didn't think the virgin birth to be essential doctrine", but again, Matthew's and Luke's details on the virgin birth provide strong "support" for the essential doctrine that Jesus was truly divine and the Son of God.  The idea that Peter knew and believed these strong supports for his doctrine that Jesus was the Son of God, but "chose to avoid" employing them when making his case that Jesus was the Son of God, is absurdly unlikely.  Peter was faced with unbelieving pagans in Rome, if Clement and Papias are correct about where said preaching took place.  If the fundies are correct to say there is no pre-Christiain pagan parallel to Jesus' virgin birth, that is yet another reason to say Peter would have employed this unprecedented historical fact in his preaching for the same reason apologists so violently oppose the pagan copycat thesis today: the uniqueness of Jesus' birth story argues for its truth.  Sure, you can have Peter choosing to avoid using the most powerful tools at his disposal, but the person who wins the historiography debate is the one who shows his theory is more likely than the others, not the one whose runs to the corner and simply carps "but my theory is always possible!"

Ninth, most fundies unreasonably argue that Mark omits the virgin birth because he saw no need to repeat what his audience already believed.  But this is foolish for two reasons:  a) the patristic sources linked above assert that Mark's motive in writing was exactly to repeat in writing, what the church, who had requested his writing, had already heard and believed in Peter's oral preaching, they obviously weren't asking to hear new things; b) Mark's alleged unwillingness to repeat what his intended audience already believed, is an excuse conjured up out of thin air, it is not based on any biblical, patristic or historical statement.  IF apologists be allowed to rest on crass speculation, doesn't fairness and academic integrity require that benefit be extended to skeptics?

So under the criteria of Howell, et al, for the argument from silence, Mark's and Peter's desire to convince unbelievers that Jesus was the Son of God necessarily implies, absent sheer stupidity on their part, that they would have found the virgin birth story particularly useful to their preaching purpose, and therefore, Mark's silence on Jesus' birth is explained better by the theory that he either didn't know about, or disapproved of, the virgin birth story, either of which does violence to the fundie position.

Historian Gilbert Garraghan has slightly different criteria:


 To be valid, the argument from silence must fulfill two conditions: the writer[s] whose silence is invoked in proof of the non-reality of an alleged fact, would certainly have known about it had it been a fact; [and] knowing it, he would under the circumstances certainly have made mention of it. When these two conditions are fulfilled, the argument from silence proves its point with moral certainty. (§ 149a)

 would certainly have known about it had it been a fact
 No problem: if as most fundies believe, Mark was the naked man in Mark 14:51, he was in a position to have known, before authoring a gospel, that Jesus was born of a virgin.  It is unlikely, if the doctrine be true, that the apostles somehow never heard of it or didn't discuss it enough to keep it in memory.

he would under the circumstances certainly have made mention of it
 That has already been established by the prior arguments in this post.  The virgin birth details strongly "support" Jesus being the Son of God, which most scholars say was Mark's intended theme.  Here's what one scholar says in the inerrantist-driven New American Commentary:
 

8.  Occasion and Purposes
..Mark clearly was not content merely to give an account of the life and teaching of Jesus. He wanted to set forth his own understanding of Jesus and thus develop his Christology. He wanted to do so in such a way as to minister to the needs of his own church. He used and applied the accounts at his disposal—something Christian teachers and preachers have been doing ever since. Mark’s concept of Jesus was that he was fully human and fully divine, both Son of Man and Son of God. Furthermore he was both the Jewish Messiah (Christ, Son of David) and the Lord of the Gentiles. Such a balanced Christology as Mark’s weighs against the theory that he was battling a heresy. Mark was especially concerned to emphasize the suffering and death of Jesus as a ransom for sinners.
Brooks, J. A. (2001, c1991). Vol. 23: Mark (electronic e.).
Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (Page 29).
Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers
Gee...how well does the virgin birth story support Mark's intended theme of Jesus being Son of God and the Jewish Messiah?   Mark wanted to show Jesus was Son of Man and Son of God, so having God come down to earth via virgin birth from a typical female virgin without the aid of human seed, would have underscored his points very strongly.
 
Tenth, courts of law are concerned with making sure juries get the straight admissible and relevant facts as much as possible, and therefore, the "rules of evidence" American Courts use, are a reliable guide for determining whether evidence is admissible.  As luck would have it, American jurisprudence lays out the rules juries must use to evaluate arguments based on silence.  It says, quoting the undisputed authority of Wigmore, that American common law has always allowed juries to take a witness's failure to assert a fact, when it would have been natural for the witness to mention it, to be the functional equivalent of a positive statement that the alleged fact is false:


Common law traditionally has allowed witnesses to be impeached by their previous failure to state a fact in circumstances in which that fact naturally would have been asserted. 3A J. Wigmore, Evidence § 1042, p. 1056 (Chadbourn rev. 1970). Each jurisdiction may formulate its own rules of evidence to determine when prior silence is so inconsistent with present statements that impeachment by reference to such silence is probative.
Cunningham v. Commonwealth, 501 SW 3d 414, 418 - Ky: Supreme Court 2016
quoting v. Anderson, 447 U.S. 231, 100 S.Ct. 2124, 65 L.Ed.2d 86 (1980).


If Courts of law are always applying their rules of evidence to help fact-finders decide what actually happened, then it would seem only a foolish Christian apologist would trifle that court is "too different" from historical analysis.  We just saw that historians agree there are times when the argument from silence is valid, so that's something historiography has in common with Wigmore's above-cited rule.  Court proceedings might be "formal", but it is only for the good goal of getting to the the actual truth, that court rules instruct the judge on what should be admissible and relevant.

Well then...did Mark write "in circumstances in which that fact [of the virgin birth of Jesus] naturally would have been asserted..."?

Hays did his best to argue that we shouldn't expect Mark to have mentioned the virgin birth, but his arguments are unconvincing, here's a recap:

Hays' reason for Paul's silence is that "the birth of Christ probably took place over several years before Paul was born", but this is nonsense, Paul says what he does about Jesus because he considers himself divinely inspired and an apostle (1st Cor. 9:1).  Paul also curiously uses the OT to support his notion that the gospel has already gone out into the world, despite the fact that he cites such OT text a few years after the public earthly ministry of Jesus (Romans 10), Paul mentions Abe and David too (Romans 4), so Paul cannot be presumed to avoid mentioning something merely because it happened before he was born.  If he can quote Abe and David to support his theology, what in blazes could have possessed him to think that the commentary by God himself, coming to earth as Jesus just a few years before Paul wrote, was less reliable for supporting theological points, than the more obscure OT?  Isn't the word of Jesus the "later light" that tells the world the "true" meaning of the OT?

Hays' next argument is that it is astounding that the virgin birth would have been recorded at all if indeed it be false, since it opened up Christians to a charge that this is a mere cover story for Mary getting pregnant out of wedlock, therefore, to record the story at all is to testify to it's historical veracity.  This too is foolish, since he assumes Luke and Matthew were intended to evangelize unbelievers, when in fact Hays doesn't want skeptics to say first century people were excessively gullible.  If that is the case, then Matthew and Luke can hardly have believed they could break down unbeliever-resistance by simply publishing their written versions of Jesus' life.  Jerome, writing in the 4th century and thus with a solid 200 + years of history behind him on which to draw, asserts Matthew wrote "for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed" (Live of Illustrious Men at 3)

Inerrantist scholar Craig Blomberg asserts in the NAC that the larger context of that quote seems to indicate Jerome was there talking about a Gospel to the Hebrews, which was a corrupt form of Matthew Jerome errantly attributed to Matthew.  I think Blomberg is really stretching here.  First, Jerome plainly talks about the gospel he thinks Matthew wrote.  What are the odds he only means the heretical gospel so controversially connected to Matthew, and not the genuine gospel?  Second, yes, in ch. 2, Jerome mentions the GoH, but he qualifies that it was a thing he recently translated into Greek, and a document Origin sometimes makes use of.  These qualifications make clear that Jerome thinks the GoH's authenticity is uncertain at best.  Therefore, when in ch. 3 he candidly asserts that Matthew wrote a gospel, he likely isn't still talking about the GoH, but rather the Matthian gospel that was non-controversial in the churches.  Therefore, when he says there that Matthew wrote for those Jews "who believed", he is saying apostle Matthew wrote the authentic gospel for Christian Jews.

 If this be so, then Hays' problem with the idea of gospel authors mentioning a scandal, disappears.  If Matthew was writing to Christians, then saying Jesus was born of a virgin  would cause no more scandal than the writing down of any other oral tradition would.  In fact, the Christians for whom Matthew wrote would likely know the Jews would mock such a story as an invention, and therefore the Christians would likely guard the story and only permit it to be taught to serious converts.

Matthew cannot be credited with an authorial purpose merely because of how the gospel happened to be used later, anymore than a modern author can be credited with a purpose to use his book as a coaster simply because that's how somebody else outside his intended readership put it to use.


Hays also says he wouldn't expect Paul to mention the virgin birth, but here again, Paul is willing to mention the resurrection of Jesus and repeat it over and over, was this not scandalous to the Jews, as Matthew alleges (27:63 ff)?  Apparently then, fear that the Jews would find the story scandalous, is, alone, insufficient to justify saying a NT author would avoid mentioning a subject.  On the other hand, Paul repeatedly asserts what he thinks the gospel consists of, and it's always the two things that scandalize non-believing Jews far more than a virgin birth story:  Christ died to pay for sin, and rose from the dead three days later (1st Cor. 15).  Paul scandalized unbelievers so much, the last half of the book of Acts primarily consists of how this got Paul arrested and sent to Rome to face Caesar.  Paul would constantly go to the synagogues (places of worship for orthodox Jews) and debate long and loud that Jesus was the Christ.  Acts 17:17, 18:4, 19:8-9.

More controversially, Paul disagrees with modern-day Calvinists and asserts the OT is sufficient to prepare the Christian minister to preach the gospel (2nd Timothy 3:16-17), i.e., that is, the OT as interpreted by Paul.  But even with that caveat, Paul is not just being silent with respect to the earthly ministry of Jesus.  His claim that the OT as interpreted by him is sufficient to equip Christian ministers for every good work, logically excludes any need to use anything beyond Paul's understanding of the OT to so equip, and that means logically excluding whatever Matthew or Luke have to say, thus logically having Paul exclude any need to equip Christian ministers with the virgin birth doctrine.

But Paul's silence on the life of Jesus and other such issues go beyond the scope of this already-long post.

In short, Hays' attempt to provide objective reasons consistent with his fundamentalist view of the bible, for why most NT authors are silent on the virgin birth, fails. Jesus positively asserted that it is what HE teaches, that is what his disciples must follow (Luke 11:27-28, Matthew 28:20), Jesus never taught that his birth had anything to do with the gospel, and when put into a circumstance where it would have been natural for him to affirm the blessedness of his mother giving him birth, he rebukes the lady who calls him blessed, and reminds the hearers that blessedness is rather what anybody has when they hear the word of God and do it (Luke 11:27-28).  This fulfills Wigmore's rule that the silence should be taken as a positive statement that the alleged fact is false.

Demolishing Triablogue, part 1: Hays and Engwer prefer dishonest debate tactics

I will update this post as further information is made known to me.

Since Jason Engwer and/or Steve Hays saw fit to ban me from their blog, I will be responding to them here at my own blog.

And while Triablogue, for whatever reason, limits the amount of text that can be posted in one post, I have encountered no such limit here at blogger.com, therefore, Engwer/Hays will be forced to face each and every reason skeptics deny the virgin birth.  My ability to respond through my own blog takes away an excuse they enjoyed for years:  manufacturing some dogshit excuse to ban a skeptic, when in fact the real reason for the ban was their inability to answer comprehensive pointed argument.


First, Engwer's idea of "debate" is suspicious;  despite the 4,000 some odd word limit at Triablogue, his second and other responses to me include links to other arguments he made on related issues.  In other words, Engwer was expecting me to "answer" several of his independent posted arguments within a single response post when he knew the word limit would make substantive comprehensive reply to each of his points/arguments impossible.

Second, after Engwer or whoever banned me, deleted my posts, but left up his own replies to me.  So now, the reader can tell that Hays/Engwer were replying to somebody, but the somebody and his comments only appear as "Comment has been blocked."   The only exception are the comments of mine that Engwer or Hays chose to repeat within their own replies.  Yes, folks, this is what Hays and Engwer consider honest and comprehensive argument/reply.  No wonder bible critics start shitting their pants and crying uncontrollably when Hays/Engwer come around tooting their horn.  There's no appropriate way to act when God's presence is made known, except to tremble in fear at the foot of the mountain...and continually remind skeptics that they never answered your argument.

Third, Engwer made it clear at Amazon.com why he banned me, and it wasn't because of rule violations, but because of some ambiguous fortune cookie-styled reason.  I had recently read  Born of a Virgin?: Reconceiving Jesus in the Bible, Tradition, and Theology, by Andrew Lincoln, and went to Amazon.com to comment and noticed Engwer had already commented on it.  I provide my comment followed by Engwers so the reader can get the full context:
skepticdude says,         Posted on Jan 19, 2017, 6:00:20 PM PST : For those who don't already know, Jason Engwer engages in the following bits of closed-mindedness: He will delete your posts at his blog if he doesn't like them (probably because he is a Calvinist, and as a presuppositionalist, cares less about arguing on the merits and more about waiting until God has made somebody see the light), he will expect you to answer all of his points within a 4,000 some-odd word limit, he will demand you obey that limit even if his reply gave you links to entirely separate arguments which themselves require much text to respond to, and he will then unfairly complain that "you have ignored most of my points", as if the critic was afraid of some argument and was running away from it, when in fact it is nothing but the word limit that helps Engwer build this happy bubble around himself.  I've challenged him numerous times to a no-word limit written debate, so that he can be confronted with scholarly rebuttal to every single one of his points thus exploding his delusion that his critics cannot "refute" him, and he runs for cover every time. Jason cannot be considered uneducated, but the way he intentionally disables his critics from saying all that needs to be said to support a rebuttal point, clearly establishes his fear that his smoke and mirrors won't last long if he is seriously "grilled" in circumstances where he cannot run away from a question or a point. He does NOT think the 4,000 some odd word limit is adequate, for if he did, that would be preposterous. He instead hides behind the 4,000 word limit so that he doesn't allow himself or the rest of the world to see how his supporting points can be refuted in a comprehensive way.  Jason has been challenged by numerous critics, and he has banned plenty of them for reasons having nothing to do with violating his rules. For all these reasons, Engwer is anything but a threat to those who laugh at bible inerrancy and theism. His actions are less consistent with somebody interested in hearing all that has to be said, and more consistent with one interested primarily in preaching to those who are predisposed to accept his superficial arguments as gospel.

 In reply to an earlier post on Feb 5, 2017, 4:25:13 PM PST Jason Engwer says: skepticdude, It would help your credibility if you'd stop calling yourself "skepticdude" and whatever other screen names you've been using, all the while accusing me of "hiding".

  It would also help your credibility if you didn't get so many facts wrong. I'm not a Calvinist, I'm not a presuppositionalist, I haven't limited anybody to four thousand words, and only an extremely tiny fraction of the people who have ever posted at Triablogue have been banned. Besides, I'm not the only person who has the ability to ban people there, so it's erroneous to equate bans from that blog with decisions made by me. I've often carried on lengthy discussions with skeptics, at Triablogue and elsewhere, including some that have lasted far beyond four thousand words, sometimes for years, and with individuals more knowledgeable and discerning than you are. 
 You should consider the possibility that people don't want to debate you because of problems with you, not with them.
First, I used several screen names in the past to try and mitigate the effects of James Patrick Holding having libeled me ever since 2008.  A truly objective person would ask why I used several screen names, instead of just blindly assuming I have no good reason.  And using several different screen names has nothing to do with credibility...you aren't going to find my pagan copycat thesis just a tad more convincing if I only post on the internet with one consistent name.

Second, the reason I assumed Engwer was a Calvinist was because he made comments in support of Calvinism years ago when I debated him at another site, and I was currently giving the benefit of the doubt to the main players at Triablogue (i.e., because they want the world to view them as the scholarly elite of Christian apologetics, they probably agree on what the bible teaches).  Sorry, my bad.  I guess several people having a scholarly level knowledge of the bible, and all of them being Christians to boot, does absolutely nothing to ensure they agree on what the bible teaches, begging the question of why any Christian should bother, beyond personal curiosity, to obtain a scholarly level knowledge of the bible.  It certainly isn't going to enable them to resolve denomination divisions in the body).  The doctrinal disagreements that splinter Triablogue therefore rationally warrant the atheist to dismiss the bible as hopelessly confused, and to say that if even spiritually alive Christian scholars cannot agree on what the bible teaches, it can only be worse for spiritually dead people to bother with.  Most average atheists have lives outside of internet debates about religion.  Whatever free time between work, school, family they might have, could be argued to be woefully inadequete for them to gain sufficient education in bible matters to justify their entering the fray, and as such, there's a perfectly good reason to just laugh off Christianity sort of the way most average people laugh off that other bit of sophistry called quantum mechanics.

And nobody, except perhaps deluded fundamentalists, would say the evidence for Christianity is so good that atheists are morally obligated to give up whatever they are doing in life and put themselves through a formal education  in the bible before they will be justified to render an opinion about that religion.  I am single with no family, and I like intellectual things and I think fundamentalist Christianity does more harm than good, and I have the time to directly combat the fundies.  That's why I pursue fundamentalists despite the above argument rationally warranting other atheists (who have families and other obligations) to dismiss Christianity without bothering with the details.

Third, Engwer was either lying when he said he doesn't limit anybody to 4000 words, or he was ignorant of the word-limit imposed by Triablogue. 

Fourth, Engwer dishonestly refuses to actually state whether he or somebody else banned me from Triablogue.  But who exactly did the banning, hardly matters.  Engwer probably wasn't exactly crying his eyes out over the fact that the way I was banned got rid of my comments while leaving up their replies to me.

Fifth, Engwer obliquely suggests that it is problems with me, not my arguments, that dissuade people from debating me.  But that makes no sense:  the truth or falsity in my criticisms of their arguments, does not rest on anything about my personal traits or life or credibility.  Engwer is not a Catholic, he isn't going to believe A is true about the bible should he think me credible.   Engwer was too chickenshit to come right out and say that my two libel lawsuits against James Patrick Holding scared the fuck out of him, and since he cannot control himself from libeling me, and since he cannot plainly admit the unvarnished truth, he has chosen to simply make it impossible, as far as he is able, for me to communicate with him.

Stay tuned for further updates.

Friday, July 7, 2017

Cold Case Christianity: The Challenges Facing Young Christians



This is my reply to an article by J. Warner Wallace entitled

 Every other week, from May to August, I have the honor of speaking with students at Summit Worldview Academy. I typically teach on the nature of truth, the reliability of the gospels, and the evidence for God’s existence.
Do you allow the kids to see how your evidence holds up while being cross examined by an informed bible critic in a live debate?  Or do you know what all professional marketing firms know (i.e., the less you respond to direct real-time criticism, the more you can increase sales)?
 The students are eager to learn and have many good questions during the breaks, during our lunch and dinner time together, and at an evening session specifically set aside for questions.  The students usually share a number of stories related to the ways they were already being challenged as young Christians. Many have experienced a season of doubt and are grateful for the training they receive at Summit. Dr. Jeff Myers, the president of Summit Ministries, has assembled an incredible collection of thinkers, teachers and trainers to help prepare students to face challenges and “analyze the various ideas that are currently competing for their hearts and minds.” These young people are eager to prepare themselves for these encounters. Christian students are surrounded by competing worldviews from a very young age. As I speak with the young men and women at Summit, I think about the many ways our kids are challenged from childhood through their college years:
 The bible does not require Christians to get so involved in the scholarly stuff that they cross swords with skeptics at every level.  You are allegedly doing all you need to do when you quote the bible to "answer" a skeptic.  But since, by your relentless promotion and marketing of your books, you clearly don't believe the bible alone to be "sufficient" for faith and practice, never mind.
They Are Challenged by the Media
Young Christians are challenged very early, beginning with their first exposure to television, movies and the internet. Much of the media is aligned against Christian values, and Americans spend about one-third of their free time, (more than the next 10 most popular leisure activities combined) watching some form of television. The messages communicated by television programming are often in direct opposition to the teaching of Christianity, and students are deeply impacted by what they absorb from the media. Two out of every three shows on television, for example, include sexual content (a dramatic increase over the past 15 years). 50% of the couples involved in sexual behavior in television programming are depicted in casual relationships (10% of these couples had just met, and 9% of television programs depict sexual behavior between teens). In a set of Kaiser Family Foundation studies, 76% of teens said that one reason young people have sex is because TV shows and movies “make it seem normal”. College students who were exposed to the many examples of sexual behavior on television were more likely to believe their peers engaged in those same activities.
Maybe I'm just a spiritually dead atheist, but sounds to me like the sins of television counsel that you start telling your readership to stop watching tv.  Oh wait, if they didn't have a tv, they couldn't watch your dvds, which means sales of your stuff would decrease.  Never mind.  
They Are Challenged by Elementary and High School Programming
Make no mistake about it, when Christian values are attacked in the public education system, the basis for those beliefs (Christianity) is also attacked. Here in California, for example, comprehensive sexual health and HIV / AIDS instruction requires schools to teach students how to have “safe sex”. “Abstinence only” education is not permitted in California public schools. In addition, California schools cannot inform parents if their children leave campus to receive certain confidential medical services, including abortions. Classic Christian values related to sexuality (and marriage) are under attack in the public school system.
So the best effort the Christian parent can put forward to battle this ungodly secular school system, is to take their kids out of it and home-school them.  If they don't, this shows the limit to which their faith is genuine.  If mom and dad cannot make the mortgage payment if one of them quits work to home-school the kids, then they should prioritize preserving their Christian morality above the pleasures of this temporary world that the truly faithful put no stock in anyway, Hebrews 13:14.  What's more important?  Keeping kids free from satanic influences, or making mortgage payments?
They Are Challenged by University Professors
Once students get to college, they are likely to encounter professors who are even more aggressive in their opposition to Christianity and Christian values. According to the Institute for Jewish and Community research, a survey of 1,200 college faculty members revealed 1 in 4 professors (25%) is an atheist or agnostic (compared with 4-5% in the general population). In addition, only 6% of university professors say the Bible is “the actual word of God”. Instead, 51% say the Bible is “an ancient book of fables, legends, history & moral precepts”. More than half of professors have “unfavorable” feelings toward Evangelical Christians. Charles Francis Potter (author of Humanism: A New Religion) said it best when he proclaimed, “Education is thus a most powerful ally of Humanism, and every American public school is a school of Humanism.  What can the theistic Sunday-schools, meeting for an hour once a week, and teaching only a fraction of the children, do to stem the tide of a five day program of humanistic teaching?”
Nothing, which is why you need to start getting a bit more "real" with your "apologetics" and tell Christian parents they'd be battling Satan far more effectively if they started by taking their own kids out of Satan's school and home-school them, even if it means they'll have less money and won't be keeping up with the Jonses anymore.
They Are Challenged by University Students
The attitude and influence of hostile professors is often accepted by University students happy to reject the moral precepts of the Christian worldview. Atheist student groups are multiplying dramatically in universities across America. The Secular Student Alliance, for example, grew from 80 student clubs in 2007 to over 250 clubs in 2011. These students groups are eager to identify themselves with names that challenge the intellectual capacity of Christian students. Atheist groups often seek titles such as “Free Thinker Society,” the “Coalition of Reason,” or the “Center for Inquiry”. The implication, of course, is that Christians are ignorant and constrained by their antiquated worldview.
They are.  Only a fool would marry a woman he never previously slept with or lived with.  God does not honor his word in the practical world, and many people often experience disaster when they forge again on some mission that they know they did not adequately prepare for.  If you never sleep with or live with your intended spouse before you marry, there is nothing from God to indicate he will help fix any natural incompatibilities you might discover after the honeymoon.  Smart people prepare adequately for the mission to be accomplished.  They don't just graduate high school and then apply for a job as a rocket scientist, foolishly thinking whatever they lack on the job, God will magically provide.  God allows people to fail too many times for lack of adequate preparation, to justify thinking he'll magically fix any living or sexual incompatibility you discover after your honeymoon.  God's ultimate ideal for marriage is pointless in light of your belief that he allows human freewill to fuck up his intentions.  He won't be magically causing a sexually incompatible Christian boyfriend/girlfriend to desire each other that way if they discover their incompatibility on their honeymoon, so God cannot complain if they fix the anticipated problem of God doing nothing for them, by making sure they are compatible sexually and as living partners BEFORE they get married.
The Church will never begin to address the growing problem of young people leaving the faith if it doesn’t first recognize the challenges facing Christian students. The young Christians at Summit have already begun to feel the impact of the cultural forces aligning against the Christian worldview. That’s why they are so encouraged to discover and experience the robust intellectual tradition of Christian thought as represented by the professors, speakers and trainers over two intensive weeks of worldview training.
Can poverty-stricken young people attend too?  Or do you limit these gospel-essentials to just the rich Christians?  If your stuff is so essential to faith today, shouldn't you be conducting the Summit in a way that allows all born again people to attend at minimal cost?  Why aren't you satisfied that simply putting up videos on youtube will suffice?  If god is not involved in an atheist learning biology in college and then becoming a biologist, why do think God has the slightest thing to do with some Christian learning apologetics arguments and then becoming an apologist?  God's "presence" in this endeavor appears to be little more than a religiously necessary afterthought appended to the whole process.  You are doing nothing more than making money off of peoples' natural tendency to adhere to false religion.  Except that it must be said you do it with a bit more respectability than do the prosperity gospel preachers on TBN.
These young people are forever changed by their experience at Summit. They are equipped to meet the challenges they already face, even as they prepare for an even greater challenge in the university setting.
Not if you have anything to say about it.  You've routinely declined multiple invitations to answer critiques of your book in a real live debate session.  Some would argue this refusal of yours to be cross-examined has more to do with your knowledge of marketing psychology and less to do with your confidence in your apologetics arguments.
All of us, as youth pastors and ministers, can learn something from programs like Summit.
And it can all be learned and profited from in ways that don't require one to rent cars and motels, and incur travel expenses.  Except that you don't believe the bible, alone, to be sufficient for faith and practice, apparently.  Nobody will have the proper "forensic faith" unless they purchase your materials.

Jason Engwer doesn't appreciate the strong justification for skepticism found in John 7:5

Bart Ehrman, like thousands of other skeptics, uses Mark 3:21 and John 7:5 to argue that Jesus' virgin birth (VB) is fiction.  Jason Eng...