Thursday, December 20, 2018

Message to Dennis Ingolfsland: No, Jesus didn't rise from the dead, if your arguments are the best you can do

This is my reply to an article by Dennis Ingolfsland entitled

 
Christians around the world will soon celebrate Easter in remembrance of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
 While being ignorant of just how poorly supported that hypothesis is historically.  I say that after reviewing Craig's, Licona's and Habermas' best efforts otherwise.
Most people understand, however, that no one comes back to life after being dead for “three days.” How could any intelligent person believe such a thing?
 Good question.  
We could be cynical and say the key word is “intelligent” but there are many people with Ph.D.’s who believe that Jesus rose from the dead. What reasons could they possibly have?
One thing appears certain, they don't have any explanation for why Jesus' family rejected his claims during his earthly ministry.
First, Jesus’ crucifixion is considered to be historical fact. It is confirmed even by ancient non-Christian sources like Josephus, Lucian and Mara Bar Serapion. In addition, since crucifixion was considered such a shameful way to die, most biblical scholars don’t believe Christians would have invented a crucifixion story that would expose them to ridicule and hinder the spread of their message.

Second, Jesus’ tomb was found empty.
My explanation for the empty tomb is easy:  it is nothing but legendary embellishment.  I do not believe Jesus was perceived by the Romans or Jews to be anywhere near the significant threat that the gospels pretend they perceived him to be.  Jesus was a common blasphemous criminal whose miracle claims were even denied by his own family, most of whom were allegedly absent from the crucifixion, and after the authorities were satisfied he was really dead, they didn't give two shits what happened to his body, nor about his alleged claims that he would rise from the dead.  All this malarkey about the Jews complained that Jesus predicted his own resurrection and thus the disciples might steal the body then claim the prophecy came true, is total bullshit. 

Either way, there was a period of time between a disciple of Jesus burying him in a tomb, and the arrival of the guards at that tomb, for foul play to occur.  If the guards could be bribed with money to say they were asleep on the job and that's how the body disappeared (the biblical excuse that would render them deserving of the death penalty) they would be more susceptible to a bribe from the "rich" Joseph of Arimathea to tell a lie that would not warrant the death penalty (i.e., when we came to the tomb to guard it, we found the body already missing).  And indeed the guards would find that particular lie more attractive since the emptiness of the tomb would be exactly what they in fact experienced, and having been gone during the foul play, their boss could not be reasonably expected to fault them for the loss of the body while it was outside their custodial reach.  All they need to do is avoid saying that they accepted a bribe to tell that story.  They arrived, the body was already gone, simple.

Or even easier:  when the guards arrived, the body was already missing, somebody had stolen the body before the guards arrived.  No need to bribe, simply march back to headquarters and report the body went missing before the guards arrived.

You will say "Matthew 27:60 says Joe rolled a large stone against the tomb, so it was secure before the guards got there!"

Really? If Joe could move the stone over the mouth of the tomb, somebody could also roll it away before the guards got there.  The only way you can avoid this is to sinfully add to the word of the Lord and pretend that when it says "he" rolled the stone, it really means a group of men.  But even that doesn't work, since if a group of men could roll it in place, another group, like the disciples, could roll it away before the guards arrived.


Regardless, the empty tomb dies under my theory that Mark intended to end at 16:8, which means the earliest gospel had nothing to say about anybody actually seeing the risen Christ.  Nothing you do with the empty tomb theory can overcome the historical problems created by Mark's unwillingness to say people actually saw the risen Christ.
All four biblical Gospels claim that Jesus’ tomb was empty (as does the second century “Gospel of Peter). The Gospels are unanimous in presenting women as the first eyewitnesses to the empty tomb.
 But Paul's "creed" in 1st Cor. 15 doesn't mention the women, and you cannot show that your explanatory theory (female testimony not considered reliable) is more plausible than the skeptical theory (the version of the story Paul heard did not involve women being the first witnesses).  After all, it was Paul himself who believed women were not inferior to men. 

And your "unanimous" argument is weak, if we give credence to the majority scholarly Christian consensus that Matthew and Luke borrowed most of their gospel material from Mark.  Gee, the copy reflects the source?
Since women were not regarded as reliable witnesses in those days,
 Apparently you are unaware that a religion called Christianity started with the testimony of women...which shows that the Christians themselves, who made up this resurrection story, didn't view female testimony as negatively as non-Christians did.  So don't forget about the Christians.
even many skeptical scholars are convinced that early Christians would not fabricate a story in which the earliest eyewitnesses were thought to be unreliable.
It's not typical Jews saying the women were the first eyewitnesses, it is Christians who tell this gospel story, and the Christian view of women wasn't as negative as the non-Christian view.
The earliest explanation for the empty tomb is found in the Gospel of Matthew which says that the guards reported that someone stole the body while they slept (if they were sleeping, how would they know)?
 Your question is precisely why that story doesn't ring true.  Were the guards so stupid, they didn't anticipate that their boss would naturally ask "how could you possibly know what happened to the body, if it happened while you were asleep?"  Furthermore, to lose the guarded object would likely warrant severe punishment possibly including execution, making it highy unlikely the guards would be willing to tell such a tale. 

You are also forgetting that Joseph of Arimathea, allegedly the guy who buried Jesus, was "rich" (Matthew 27:57), and thus it is equally as plausible to suggest that Joe bribed the guards to say "the body was gone when we first arrived at the tomb".  Between Matthew 27:60-62, a full day transpired between Joseph burying Jesus and the arrival of the guards. 

You will insist they would surely check that the body was still there before sealing the tomb, but on the contrary, modern history is plagued with examples in which the authorities did a shocking piss-poor job of evidence collection and otherwise violated common sense in their effort to secure evidence.  Combined with Joe's being rich and thus having capacity to offer the guards even more money than the earlier Jews who first bribed the guards, you are a fool to pretend that Matthew's version is the most historically plausible version of the events.

And if the body was indeed gone when the guards arrived, they could truthfully say to their boss that the body was missing when they arrived, and this misleading impression would carry far less risk to their lives than the bullshit "disciples-stole-the-body-while-we-were-asleep" yarn that no fool would fall for. Since Joe's bribing the guards this way makes them far less prone to the fearful penalties of failing their task, Joe's bribing the guards to truthfully say the body was gone when they first arrived, sounds like the more likely historical truth.  Feel free to keep your own theory alive by speculating that the guards were retarded, drunk or stupid but sheer possibilities can never trump the probability you just read.
The stolen body theory might explain why the tomb was empty but we would still have to account for the stories that say Jesus was seen alive after his death.
I do account for them.  They are legendary embellishments, because they only appear in the later gospels, the earliest gospel, Mark, stops at 16:8, exactly the point where Matthew and Luke diverge.  Doesn't matter if Marcan priority is technically false, reasonableness doesn't require accuracy or comprehensive rebuttal to counter-theories.  Markan priority is what most Christian scholars agree with, so its obviously reasonable to accept.  If any reader wishes to mount the case against Markan priority, they can consider themselves invited to try.
Some have suggested that Jesus survived the crucifixion. Most biblical scholars find this unconvincing. Three crucified friends of Josephus (a first century historian) were taken off their crosses after only a few hours. Although all of them presumably received medical attention, two of them died the same day, and the third one died shortly thereafter. An article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (March 21, 1986) concluded that theories about Jesus’ survival are contrary to the evidence. Even if Jesus had survived, however, it seems a bit silly to think that early Christians would have hailed this very bruised and broken man (most likely in critical condition) as their resurrected Messiah!
 I don't bother with such foolishness.  Dismissed.  Next?
Third, Jesus was believed to have appeared alive physically after his execution (Matthew 28:9; Luke 24:39-43; John 20:17, 27-28). Recent scholars have argued that in the Gospels we are in touch with what early Christians believed about Jesus.
 But most scholars deny the apostolic authorship of the gospels, so without good argument that they are wrong, to trust the word of the canonical gospels is to trust the word of several different authors and redactors, whose unique contributions making up the final canonical form can no longer be distinguished from the "original", a situation you'd scream your head off about, if the eyewitness affidavit showing you committed murder, suffered the same degree of multiple authorship and textual changes and borrowing extensively from a prior similar affidavit.

But the fact that Matthew and Luke often "tone down" Mark's version of things might indicate that these two gospel authors didn't view Mark as inerrant.  If they thought Mark's choice of wording was "inerrant", then what could possibly motivate them to think inerrant wording inspired by God needed the least bit of alteration?
Regardless of whether anyone today believes their stories, it is beyond reasonable doubt that the Gospel writers taught that the resurrection of Jesus was physical, not merely “spiritual.”
 Agreed.
Even Ignatius, writing shortly after the last New Testament book was written, said that that Jesus was still in the flesh after his resurrection.
Years before the Gospels were written St. Paul also affirmed the physical resurrection of Jesus. In First Corinthians—which even the most skeptical scholars believe is genuine
 You mean the epistle that shows that some of the Christians in his church irrationally denied the possibility of resurrection from the dead?  1st Cor. 15:12.  Isn't that about as believable as followers of Paul who deny the existence of God?  Gee, what could have motivated these "some" to conclude that resurrection doesn't happen? It couldn't be their serious investigation into the gospel sources, could it? 
—Paul writes that the resurrected Jesus was seen by more than 500 people.
A fact the gospels don't mention, a fact gospel authors wouldn't likely remain silent about if they knew such a thing had happened.

Paul also said he would pretend to believe things he didn't truly believe, if he felt doing so would help him gain converts.  1st Cor, 9:20-21.  When Paul circumcised Timothy "because of the Jews (Acts 16:3), what was he saying while using the knife?  Maybe "all things in my Jewish past that were gain to me, like my heritage and circumcision, I count as dung "(Phil. 3:8)?

Paul also confessed, that, 14 years after the fact, he still couldn't tell whether his flying into the sky happened to his physical body or only to his spirit. 2nd Cor. 12:1-4.  And you set forth this hack as if his credibility is beyond question? FUCK YOU.
It seems pretty clear that Paul is not intending to say that 500 people had hallucinations or visions!
 No, that's not clear at all.  Mass hallucination does not require that the exact same mental image be shared by everybody during the experience, only that they are all having the same general delusion.  Just look at today's Pentecostals.  They insist they are all slain by the single selfsame Holy Spirit, but that hardly implies that they are claiming to have shared the exact same mental images during the experience.  once you correct that misunderstanding, mass hallucination becomes a far more likely candidate.  It's what happened at Fatima.
Not only that, but Paul uses the word “resurrection” to describe what happened to Jesus. Resurrection” meant that the body came back to life, not that the spirit lived on after death which is something most people believed anyway.
 Paul is not credible.  If he wanted to say Jesus' body came back to life, he could have done so in a couple of paragraphs instead of a whole chapter going off into eotericc nonsense about how the glory of the sun is different than the glory of the moon, etc.  Paul apparently knew how to phrase things in order to convey that Jesus' flesh came back to life, see Acts 2:31.

Worse for Paul, he allegedly could have simply quoted the specific resurrection tradition unique to his follower Luke, namely, that when Jesus rose, he proved he wasn't a spirit (Luke 24:39).  Paul's choice to go into a mile-long rant about spiritual bodies makes me suspicious that the matter of his belief about resurrection is a bit more complex that you are letting on.

What you appear to have overlooked is that Paul felt his bodily resurrection beliefs needed to be taught to the Corinthians because some were denying the whole idea.  It's hard to believe that Paul would have taken this much time to correct them, if their denial of bodily resurrection was "clear" error.  How much time would you spend with a "Trinitarian" who denies that the Holy Spirit is a person?   I thus reasonably conjecture that the reason Paul devoted so much time to the subject is because exactly how Jesus "rose" was NOT "clear" to the Corinthians, but rather a subject of significant dispute.
In Second Corinthians, Paul reminds his readers of the persecution he faced for preaching the gospel, including imprisonment, beatings and life-threatening danger like being stoned (with real stones)!
 My grandpa also told me lots of stories from WW2, which under your trusting logic apparently means I have no choice but to assume he was incapable of exaggerating what really happened to make it more dramatic.
Paul was so convinced of the resurrection that he staked his whole life on it!
Paul started out persecuting the Christian violently, then suddenly started agreeing with them.  I don't have a lot of faith in people who can teleport between two such extremes at the speed of light.  I'm also suspicious that Paul's tendency to go to extremes likely manifested itself by him exaggerating what really happened to him.  Yes, grandpa was in the army and suffered many things.  No, that doesn't mean every shocking detail he related was the historical truth.  You also overlook that Paul was aware that his churches couldn't easily "check" his facts, unless they were willing to take dangerous first-century trips over long distances, which would involve leaving their families and jobs, sacrifices most people in honor/shame cultures would have difficulty with unless they were rich and bored.  I see no motive for Paul to fear he might be caught lying.  Look at Benny Hinn, any fool can tell that asshole is nothing but a con artist...but does the prospect of being exposed bother Hinn in the least?  NO. 

And you know what sinners will do if they think they can get away with it.  Paul himself said all men should be presumed to be liars.
Many other early Christians staked their lives on the same conviction.
 They were deluded Pentecostals just like Paul.  Did you have a point?
Finally, the resurrection of Jesus could be treated as a historical hypothesis; a hypothesis which explains a lot that is difficult to explain otherwise. For example:
The hypothesis of Jesus’ resurrection explains the conversion of Paul.
A stupid internally conflicted extremist would also explain Paul's radical shift in thinking.
By his own testimony Paul had violently opposed Christianity.
Something also not corroborated by any independent or first-hand source.  Once again, its just grandpa embellishing the historical truth to make it more dramatically memorable.
How did this rabid opponent of Christianity became one of its most ardent promoters?
Maybe the way a know-nothing farm boy became the founder of Mormonism?  Claim a vision, seek gullible followers, and wait a few years to see if the plan works?

Also, you don't know what exact historical accidents happened so that among all the Christian talkers of the first century, Paul ended up having the most popularity.
Paul himself would say it was due to his conviction that Jesus had risen.
And Benny Hinn lies when telling people they are healed. An obvious liar, easily verfied, yet the harsh truth doesn't slow him down at all.
The hypothesis of Jesus’ resurrection explains the change in worship from the Sabbath to the first day of the week.
 More correctly, the belief that Jesus rose, would explain this.  The hypothesis of Santa Claus would also explain presents under the tree that nobody claims responsibility for.
Sabbath observance was so central to ancient Jewish identity that for Jewish Christians (The earliest Christians were all Jewish) to start worshiping on Sunday would be more shocking than if PETA started sacrificing puppies!
 No, you are just falsely classifying all first-century Jews as extreme devotees, when in fact that was hardly the case.  Cornelius was allegedly a "devout" follower of Judaism, yet he didn't even recognize that worship of human beings constituted idolatry.  Acts 10:25-26.
It would demand an explanation. Belief that Jesus had risen on the first day of the week would explain the change.
 Lots of false hypotheses would also explain the evidence in a murder trial, that hardly does anything to help answer the question of what actually DID happen.
This hypothesis also explains the continuation of the Jesus movement even after his death.
 Well then, since Mormonism continued to grow after Smith and Young died...
Many Jews expected their Messiah to kick the Romans out of Judea.
 Probably because the OT made it fairly clear that the messiah would be nothing more than an earthly ruler.
When the Romans crushed these Messiah wannabees their movements always died with them. Only in the case of Jesus did the movement continue after his death.
Incorrect, the Jesus-cult died out before the 5th century.  That crap you call "Christianity" today is nothing close to the legalistic temple worship that constituted original Christianity.
The hypothesis would also explain the worship of Jesus by early Christians who were fiercely monotheistic Jews!
Nope, Cornelius was a "devout" Jew, and yet if you conclude he surely knew what types of worship constituted idolatry, you'd be wrong.  Acts 10, supra.   You are dishonestly painting the first-century Jews as a group of theologians who were in confident agreement about what constituted idolatry.  You are mistaken.  Philo couldn't even avoid admitting his doctrine of the Logos implied that the wisdom of God was a "second god" (Questions and Answers on Genesis 2:62) 

And don't even get me started on how hopeless it is to pretend the author of 2nd Kings 3:27 was a monotheist.  He clearly thought the Moabite deity turned the tide of the battle, that's the best explanation for the "wrath" that came against Israel after the pagan king sacrificed his son during a stand-off.  If you think that wrath was your god or something else, consider yourself challenged.
We really haven’t even scratched the surface on this topic but evidence like this has convinced even highly skeptical scholars that Jesus’ earliest followers sincerely believed that he had risen from the dead.
These skeptical scholars are quick to add, however, that we can be absolutely certain that Jesus did not rise from the dead because dead people just don’t come back to life.
 You will never show that it is irrational to use our personal pool of life experience to draw conclusions about stories whose content contradict the way we experience life to work.  How the fuck else do you expect cops and criminal investigators to detect when somebody's logically possible story sounds suspicious?  Prayer?  
Some might say that their philosophical presuppositions (faith) outweigh historical considerations.
Just like it is the philosophical presuppositions of Protestants that outweigh the historical evidence and testimony to the Catholic miracles at Fatima, Lourdes, etc.   You've already decided that Catholicism is false. Don't tell me you are Mr. Truth-Robot and you are always eager to let the chips fall where they may even when evidence potentially contradicting your chosen religion comes down the pike.  I don't fault you for choosing to make up your mind before you turn 98 years old, so you cannot fairly fault skeptics for choosing to making up their minds before they turn 98 years old either.  Life is also about arriving at conclusions, it's not limited to just being objectively open to every new theory that comes along.  I've made up my mind that Mormonism is false.  I will NEVER be open to the possibility that it might actually be true.  Now under your own religion, isn't this closed-minded stance a mark of virtue?
In the final analysis, nothing can be “proven” beyond all possible doubt.
 Which is irrelevant, since it is only stupid amateurs who think the non-existence of absolute proof is somehow compelling one way or the other.
There is always a gap that can be crossed only by faith (this is also true in science).
It's nice to know you have a Ph.d and yet you clearly understand "faith" to be something that fills in evidentiary gaps.  Perhaps that has something to do with your "passion" for Christianity.  $10 says you are either a charismatic or a Pentecostal.
Those of us who have examined the evidence, however, and have experienced what we believe to be the grace and power of God in our lives, and the witness of the Spirit in our hearts, have no trouble proclaiming with Christians around the world that He is risen indeed!
 Do you ever tell skeptics to avoid appeals to emotion?  Why?  Is there some law of the cosmos that says only Christians are allowed to do that?

Dennis Ingolfsland's blind appeal to the Big Bang

This is my reply to an article by Dennis Ingolfsland entitled





Some fascinating facts:

    "The expansion rate of the Big Bang had to be accurate to within one part in [10 followed by 55 zeros--The actual quotes use scientific notation but as far as I know, that's not possible in blogger]. Any slower and the universe would have collapsed. Any faster and there would be no stars or planetary systems. In either case, life would not be possible."
 The Institute for Creation Research (ICR) is composed of Christians who have advanced degrees in scientific fields, and they push biblical creationism, yet they also declare that the big bang is both biblically untenable and scientifically false.  See "The Big Bang Theory Collapses", hereAnswers in Genesis is another Christan creationist organization that considers the Big Bang to be a naturalistic invention that is contrary to biblical teaching.  See here

See also
Christian apologists should abandon the big bang 
Jonathan F. Henry 

Some prominent Christian apologists claim that the big bang was God’s method of creation. Another common view is that the big bang is an apologetic for biblical creation. By this reasoning, Genesis 1:1 says that there was a beginning, and the big bang was also the beginning of the universe. Thus the big bang is an evidence for creation, not evolution. This is a mistaken conclusion. The ministries of the Christian apologists named in this paper, as well as others that could be named, generally take a high view of Scripture which strengthens Christian faith. The critique
That was from JOURNAL OF CREATION 23(3) 2009, link to pdf here.

Is it reasonable for the unbeliever to ask whether Christianity's internal disagreements on the big bang indicate that there is no god of truth guiding either side?  Sure, anything's possible: maybe God wants young-earthers to be wrong in their view of the BB "for the sake of a greater good", but is that speculation remotely near "compelling" upon the unbeliever?  No.  Then we can be rationally warranted and reasonable to dismiss Christian efforts to use the BB to prove god, just like we cite to the several different interpretations of quantum mechanics to justify turning away from the absurd sophistry put out by the Copenhagen school.
    "The force of gravity had to be accurate to within on part in [10 followed by 40 zeros]. Otherwise, stars could not form, and life would be impossible."
 Take a cup full of pennies, toss them onto the carpet.  Take extensive notes about how each coin landed, its proximity to other coins, and which exact carpet fibers were implicated.  If the power of your toss, the shape of the cup, the design of the carpet or the movement of air through the room had been different at the time of the toss, the resulting pattern would have been very different than the one you recorded. 

So obviously the pattern you recorded could not have been the result of randomly throwing coins on the floor, but only the result of intelligent design.  Yeah right.  The pattern exhibits what could be viewed as "specified complexity", yet we also know the design appeared without intelligent intervention or purpose, as a similarly complex design would have emerged if such a cup of pennies had been knocked over during an earthquake.
    "The mass density of the universe had to be accurate to within on part in [10 followed by 60 zeros]. Otherwise, life-sustaining stars could not have formed."
 Same answer.
This comes from The Making of an Atheist by philosopher James S. Spiegel (pg 46), quoting from former atheist philosopher Antony Flew.
 Anthony Flew was a dipshit who seems to have avoided doing his best to combat Christian theism.  Your use of Flew to "show what atheists argue" is akin to me using the WestBoro Baptist church to "show what Christians do".
And all of this was just for conditions for the development of life to be theoretically possible! (Antony Flew was influenced by MIT scientist Gerald Schroeder). The actual appearance of life is much more problematic:

    "...two scientists, Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe, calculated the odds of life emerging from non-living matter to be on in [10 followed by 40,000 zeros]." To put this enormous figure in perspectice, consider that the number of atoms in the known universe is [10 followed by 80 zeros]--a paltry sum by comparison. Moreover, consider the fact that statisticians, as a general rule, consider any 'possibility' less than on in [10 followed by 50 zeros] to be impossible" (Spiegel, 48).
Dr. Ingolfsland, come on:  Do you seriously think the average Christian reading this stuff has the first fucking clue about its actual mathematical basis?  If you have a Ph.d, you need to rise above the "prove-by-anecdote" fallacy and shape up. 
I just don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
 The faith required to be an atheist is far less blind than the faith it takes to believe that 2,000 year old  reports of unknown provenance and authorship, which speak about a resurrected man, are "reliable".  At least atheists are dealing with things that can be empirically detected.  Their theories about how the visible world works might be wrong, but at least they are dealing with matters that are clearly part of reality (excluding the idiots who push "dark matter" and other such nonsense).  But Christians posit an invisible immaterial deity that lives "outside of time" and "beyond the natural", concepts that are incoherent.

Clearly the Christian view is a faith more blind than the atheist viewpoint I argue for.

And I don't worship deities that cause men to rape women, that's why I say the Christian god, if he exists, is nothing but a demon:
 13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the LORD of hosts In the day of His burning anger.
 14 And it will be that like a hunted gazelle, Or like sheep with none to gather them, They will each turn to his own people, And each one flee to his own land.
 15 Anyone who is found will be thrust through, And anyone who is captured will fall by the sword.
 16 Their little ones also will be dashed to pieces Before their eyes; Their houses will be plundered And their wives ravished.
 17 Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them
, Who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold.
 18 And their bows will mow down the young men, They will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb, Nor will their eye pity children. (Isa. 13:13-18 NAU)
 Lest you mistake your quick dismissal of my "interpretation" for the very presence of God, yes, there are conservative evangelical Christian scholars who admit that this text means exactly what it says:
17–18 As the macabre scene resulting from the cosmic quake passes, the finger points to historical movement. Yahweh calls attention to stirrings among the feared Medes for which he claims responsibility.
Watts, J. D. W. (2002). Vol. 24: Word Biblical Commentary : Isaiah 1-33.
Word Biblical Commentary (Page 198). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.
 If interpreting this part of Isaiah was so "clearly" wrong, how likely is it that OT Christian scholar J.D.W. Watts would have missed it?  Can you really blame the atheist bible critic who agrees with Christian scholars that God is taking responsibility for causing some men to rape women here?

What Isaiah is talking about are standard atrocities that were a known part of real ANE warfare.

Dennis Ingolfsland: how to use tragedy in the lives of other to more effectively sell Jesus

This is my reply to an article by Dennis Ingolfsland entitled


Let’s imagine that God decided, through some form of supernatural coercion, to force human beings against their will to always obey his law.  In other words, imagine that human beings were supernaturally prevented from ever behaving in ways that were violent, immoral, hateful, dishonest, greedy, envious, manipulative, unloving or selfish. Imagine if we were all required to be generous with our money. Imagine if we were required to set aside one day a week to rest and worship God. Imagine if we were supernaturally prevented from ever giving our own comforts, entertainments, pleasures or pastimes a higher priority than God.
 That's not hard to imagine.  You Christians call it "heaven" or "incorruptible resurrection body".  That state of affairs is, according to your own beliefs, an actual reality whereby people authentically love and worship God while yet also lacking the ability to sin.
In such a world there would be no murder, rape, robbery, assault, immorality or dishonesty but in such a world there can be no doubt that most people would view God as a micro-managing tyrannical dictator and would hate him with every fiber of their being. They would only worship him out of compulsion, not love.
 Then you are saying that the people who have previously died and are now in heaven, only worship god out of compulsion, not love, because after getting to heaven, they lost their ability to sin.
So God has taken the alternate approach—probably one of the worst things he could have done to us. He lets us have our way, or in Paul’s words, “God gave them up.”
 Sure, that's in the bible.  But so are stories about God forcing people to sin, then punishing the puppets for their moving in the same sinful direction that God was pulling their strings, see Ezekiel 38:4 ff.  Maybe you can explain to your class why modern day Christians like you never go around using the "hook in your jaws" metaphor to give people a correct notion about the extent to which God claims responsibility for a human being's choices?  Yeah, "hook in your jaws" sort of sounds like the metaphor only a hyper-Calvinist would use, amen?
God gives us the freedom to gossip, lie, cheat, steal, slander, get drunk, take drugs, fornicate, commit adultery, rape, rob and murder.
And if an earthly father gave his teen kids the same degree of freedom, we'd consider him to be a very stupid irresponsible parent.
In other words, he gives us freedom and allows us to suffer the consequences for our sin.
 Right, like the earthly father who allows his 5 year old son to play with a real loaded pistol, then allows him to suffer the consequence of being deprived of his 4 year old brother for the rest of his life.  And then you wonder why non-Christians are bothered when you talk about god as if he were a "father" and was "loving".
Humans then shake their puny fists in God’s face demanding to know why he allows such evil in the world.
Not much different than the 5 year old daughter who is being raped in her dad's presence, and she shakes her puny fist at him and asks why he is allowing this evil.  Then her dad, the godly man that he is, reminds her that it is fallacious to automatically assume that because she cannot currently see the dad's alleged greater purposes, there are no such purposes.
But Christianity teaches that God then did the most amazing thing. He became human himself—a fact celebrated in the Christmas season—and entered the world of suffering that we largely created.
 A bit of theological nonsense that Christians borrowed from earlier pagan motifs about the gods becoming men.  See Acts 14:11 for one example.  And don't forget: this is not compelling to unbelievers who notice that many Christian groups deny that Jesus was God.  Gee, are we intellectually compelled to spend the next 5 years studying the differences between Trinitarians and Jehovah's Witnesses before we can be rationally warranted to make a decision about whose theology is more biblical?
He allowed himself to be mocked, beaten and tortured—all so he could deliver us from the consequences of our own sin.
Which was rather stupid, sadistic and wasteful on his part since other bible verses make it clear that God can get rid of sin with a mere wave of his magic wand, no bloodshed required...like he did so conveniently in the case of King David's death-deserving crimes of adultery and murder:
 11 "Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.
 12 'Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.'"
 13 Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die.
 14 "However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die." (2 Sam. 12:11-14 NAU)
 There is nothing in the context to indicate the means by which God took away that sin, so we are fully justified to believe that this is the textual case precisely because it was by no means beyond divine fiat that the sins should be taken away (i.e., like a presidential pardon).

Well?  If God can get rid of David's death-deserving sins of adultery and murder by simply declaring that they are, in fact "taken away", God can get rid of the sins of everybody else in the world likewise by mere divine fiat that those sins are now "taken away".  Presto, problem solved.  So if God really did come to earth and allow himself to get beaten and killed in the effort to placate his own wrath against sin, we are forced to conclude that God sometimes forgets about the power he actually possesses to get rid of sin by mere decree.
At a time when atheists demand to know where God was during the tragedy in Connecticut we should note that if atheism is true there will never, ever be justice for the victims and their families.
So what you are saying is that our wish that such people obtain justice, is a rational justification to tell ourselves that surely there must be a great Justice out there in another dimension who will make everything better at the end of time? Count me out.
If atheism is true the parents will never, ever see their children again.
If Christianity is true, a mother-elephant will never see her baby elephant ever again after it gets torn apart by lions.  Did you have a point?
There is no hope. There is no real comfort. There is only unfathomable grief and despair.
I prefer reality to false hope.  If you seriously do find comfort in such hope, I encourage you to keeping believing.  But expect that hope to be dashed if you dare to insult atheists and tell us that our views are "foolish".
The Bible teaches that the gunman will not escape justice,
 Then it should, because it teaches that God was the cause of the gunman's murders (Deut. 32:39, Job 14:5).
and holds out hope that through Christ the parents could see their children again at a time when “our present sufferings are not worth comparing” with the glory God has for us; a time when “the former things will not be remembered” and God will wipe away all tears (Romans 8:18; Isaiah 65:17; 25:8; Revelation 7:17; 21:4).
Then your theology is heterodox at best and heretical at worst:  the bible nowhere expresses or implies that family members on this earth will recognize each other after they get to heaven, despite how wonderfully comforting such hope is.  You are moving beyond the word of the Lord and trying to give your followers more comfort than the bible actually promises.  And under the conservative hermeneutic which says you remain silent where the bible is silent, you either show from the bible that loved ones who make it to heaven will recognize each other there, or remain silent about the subject.
Our hope is that the tragedy in Connecticut will ultimately lead people to turn their hearts to God who is able to re-unite parents with their children and turn temporal tragedy into eternal triumph.
 That's the typical Christian, trying to turn the plight of others into an opportunity to more effectively market your religion.  And maybe that tragedy will cause some people to sign up at Crown College at a discounted tuition rate to listen to your speculations?

FUCK YOU. 

Wednesday, December 19, 2018

Rebuttal to Cerebral Faith on Moral Objections from Atheists

This is my reply to an article by Phillip Mast, posted by Cerebral Faith, entitled:

As what tends to happen, another objection has been making its way around the internet by skeptics and unbelievers. The meme (as seen below) is making two primary assertions in its attack on Christians and our Lord (If you couldn’t tell the picture is depicting Noah’s Ark purposely seemingly with just children drowning). The attack on Christianity is based on an emotional appeal and some moral assumptions that aren’t proven.
 While appeal to emotion is fallacious, there are naturalistic reasons why most mature educated adults automatically find infanticide and child-massacre to be offensive.  You have wrongly assumed that because there are emotions involved, the objection must be fallacious.  Under your logic, the jury who convicts a man of child rape and then sentences him to the maximum of life in prison, cannot divorce emotion from their verdict, therefore, all such verdicts are necessarily founded on the fallacy of emotionalism.  Well sorry, but real life requires one to have emotions and to react in conformity to them, even if not always.

You also overlook why it is an emotional issue.  While a human military general might decide that the collateral damage of bombing a school full of kids is required to achieve the larger goal of killing off the nuclear bomb toting terrorists hiding at that school, your god has no such excuse, as your god can cause even idolatrous unbelievers to do whatever he wants by simply waving his magic wand (Ezra 1:1, Daniel 4:33).  Since infants cannot make rational choices, the only way John the Baptist could have been filled with the Holy Spirit from before birth (Luke 1:15) is if God caused it to be so without that infant's consent or freewill.  In other words, your God apparently has the ability to get rid of the problem of human rebellion with fairy dust and is far less concerned about respecting human freedom than you think.  So if the Canaanites are being grossly immoral, it is reasonable to blame this on God's refusal to wave his magic wand.

Since you don't permit Mormons or other "cultists" to escape a theological jam by merely invoking God's "mysterious ways", fairness requires that your own option to invoke this excuse likewise be revoked.

But before going any further I’d suggest you take a look at the story of the flood and Noah’s Ark in Genesis 6:5 through 8:22 so as to get the context of both the meme and what I am sharing with you.
 Done. And I see signs in the text that your god was limited and imperfect. 

God "regretted" his own choice to make mankind (Genesis 6:6-7), and nothing in the text or context suggests it is speaking other than literally, so you have no objective justification to just scream "anthropomorphism" whenever bible inerrancy would require you to.

Then after the flood, God speaks as if he "noticed for the first time" that mankind's heart was evil continually, and on this basis, "decided" to avoid flooding the earth ever again (8:21), which, again, makes it sound as if God later contemplated that his flooding of the earth wasn't the brightest idea.

We also have to ask how the originally intended recipients of Genesis would have understood it.  Seems pretty obvious that for such a mostly illiterate pre-scientific people, the statement that god "smelled" the "soothing" aroma of Noah's burnt sacrifices and pledged to never flood the earth again (8:21) would have been taken literally...that is, the smoke of the sacrifice went up into the sky where God was literally located, and by smelling the aroma, God was placated...sort of like the dangerous starving dog that is placated by giving it a bunch of food.

So there are two problems: a) your God's wishing to massacre children despite him having other less barbaric ways of resolving such problems, and b) the textual indicators that this god was limited in knowledge and power.

For these reasons, I don't give a shit how many times William Lane Craig speculates about how maybe God knew that this was the most efficient way to promote the most righteousness in all possible worlds...anymore than I give a shit about any terrorist who utters the same excuse while flying the hijacked plane toward a building.
2018-12-17 15.26.14.jpg

As mentioned the meme is making an emotional appeal and moral assumptions that aren’t proven or consistent. So let’s break down what is most likely being advocated in the meme and then we will present a better way of looking at the situation given the belief of Christians.

“If you worship a god that drowns its children for being disobedient,”

This is obviously meant to be geared towards the flood event in Genesis and when combined with the imagine depicting children drowning is certainly making an emotional appeal.
If you came home to find that the babysitter had drowned your child, would you be emotional? Blame your god, whom you think gave us our moral sense.  Why did your god of "truth" give us our sense of emotion, if deciding things based on emotion is never a good idea?
This is a fallacious argument as the appeal to emotion is in a general category of many fallacies that intend to use emotion in place of reason in order to attempt to win the argument. It is a type of manipulation used in place of valid logic. Now perhaps if the backdrop of drowning children weren’t used one could perhaps advise that it may be making an emotional appeal by use of ‘children’ in the sentence to portray a certain image in the mind. Christians can and do use the phrase of being ‘children of God’ which could be the reference and if it were the case would give the best assumption to the skeptic in this regards.
Well excuse me, but Christianity wouldn't exist if everybody automatically shit-canned every argument that could be said to appeal to one's emotions.  People naturally get emotional when you start talking about how they are going to endure some type of eternal depression or torment, so the Christian appeal to hell, according to your own reasoning, must also be a fallacious appeal to emotion.  You have to tell us that we are in trouble with god before we will perceive any need to be "saved" from that trouble, and as soon as you name the trouble, you are appealing to our emotions, no less than does the robber who threatens you at gunpoint and demands your wallet.  Giving in to the demand, so as to avert the potential disaster, involves an awful lot of emotion.
When it comes to the issue of the flood there was a particular situation beyond simple ‘disobedience’ as the skeptic has put it. Scripture gives insight of what was really the situation. Genesis 6:5 say,

“The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
 But you don't know that this is true, all you are doing is pretending that the biblical version of the story is the only one that matters.  By the way, Genesis 8:21 makes it seem as if God didn't know, until after the flood, that flooding the world wouldn't resolve the sin problem.  Read it the way the pre-scientific and mostly illiterate Israelites would have understood it, not the way a modern-day inerrantist jack ass would read it, in his crazed concern to make everything in the bible harmonize into a smug systematic theology.

And  this attack on god appears to be successful in the real world.  No, flooding the world did NOT resolve the sin problem, and the way god reacts after the flood in 8:21, it is clear that he didn't have some higher mysterious purpose, he simply flooded the world, then realized later that this solution wasn't the best one he could think of.
The wickedness of man was great and that every intent of their hearts was evil continually.
 Which is total bullshit and cannot be documented from extra-biblical sources.  The god of the OT was equally as evil as you think the Canaanites were.

And that is your god's fault since Ezra 1:1 and Daniel 4:33 indicate God can be as successful as he wants to be in motivating human beings to do his will.
This definitely was not a situation of simple disobedience.
 But you don't believe a 3 year old has reached the age of accountability...yet the flood story requires that we infer that many such children endured all the same horror of drowning that their allegedly sinful parents did.

I don't give a shit how confident William Lane Craig is in saying such kids went immediately to heaven...anymore than I give a shit about the terrorist who says something similar about the children in the daycare center he is about to bomb in the name of Allah.  There is no direct biblical evidence that those who die infancy go to heaven, and that particular bit if theology would justify never having kids and encouraging more abortions...since doing something that causes a child to inevitably go to heaven, is clearly more loving than letting them live past the age of accountability, when the threat of irreversible eternal hell becomes a real danger.  If you wouldn't let your kids play near the mouth of an active volcano, why would you let them grow past the age of accountability?  Isn't our ultimate spiritual fate of greater importance than the moral wrongness of murdering kids?

Yet that's the stupid-shit thinking that reasonably follows from the stupid apologists who mistake their speculations about the fate of murdered babies, for "god's word".  FUCK YOU.
God is patient and merciful but scripturally there are times in which the amount or kind of wickedness gets to such a level that God acts to pass judgment.
 You are doing nothing but quoting the bible at this point.  Do you still expect skeptics to suspect something wrong in their bible criticism?
We see this also when God passes judgment on Sodomo and Gomorrah in Genesis 18-19 and as well the Canaanite nations in the book of Joshua. Just as in these situations and during the time before the flood God patiently waited.
 Your God allegedly has infallible foreknowledge, so his patiently waiting for a repentance that he infallibly knew the idolaters would never make, is about as stupid as "patiently" waiting for a sack of concrete to produce a shark.  Now since Christianity has given the world a smorgasbord of idiots who quote the bible to  prove their mutually contradictory concepts of the extent of God's foreknowledge (Calvinism, Molinism, etc), my advice is that God's likeminded ones get their act together before they go on the internet pretending that their voice is more significant than the voice of their equally Christian opponent.  Or the atheist who cites the extreme extent of the theological disagreements among the Christians and their bible interpretations, will be very reasonable to toss the entire matter out the window and not give any of it a moment's reflection.
He did not instantly pass judgment when the various peoples started committing wickedness and having evil intents.
 Which would be similar to you coming home to find the babysitter molesting your child, and your choice to patiently wait to see if they will repent when you start telling them "that's a no-no".   Is such a parent possessed of great patience, or great stupidity?
For instance God even patiently waited over 400 years while his people languished in Egyptian slavery until the canaanite’s iniquity was ‘complete’ (Genesis 15:16) or to such an extent that God could not hold off judgment any longer.
 Are you speaking to atheists or just Christians? An atheist is not going to be impressed by you simply quote-mining the bible.
Take this longsuffering and patience of God into account when he told Noah to build the Ark. The Ark was a massive piece of construction in Noah’s time. From the accounts of when we are introduced to Noah he is 500 years old and when the floodwaters arrived Noah is 600 years old. We don’t know for certain how long it took Noah to build the Ark but we do know God didn’t give Noah a small building project. It was noticeable and took time to build. Undoubtedly there was bound to be questions asked of Noah as to why he was building a huge ship when it had not rained previously. So we have two pieces of information to consider about God’s passing judgment: He was patient still and despite even this little added time people did not repent from their wickedness, violence, and evil intent. So what we have done here is show that God isn’t some being that just arbitrarily destroys people for no reason but is instead patient and in fact desires that wicked people repent as we see elsewhere like Ezekiel 18:23; 33:11.
preaching to the choir.
“you have no right to criticize my moral standards.”
Further there has been this assumption that God cannot take the life of anyone.
 Maybe some lesser informed skeptics see it that way, but not I.  If you think your god is the highest level of authority possible, then he doesn't have a "right" to take life because when we say somebody has a "right", we normally mean that right comes to them from an authority higher than themselves.

If there is a god and he is the bible-god, he would not be accountable to anybody for doing whatever he wanted, including his being inconsistent.  That's the more philosophically accurate way to characterize this.  
In fact the argument most associated with the flood incident, the Canaan judgment, or Sodom and Gomorrah is that the skeptic says that God murders these people. Why is that? Skeptics assume that God is not allowed or has no reason to take their life and so his doing so one way or another is murder.
 And given there's no compelling evidence for god and good evidence that the bible god is nothing but a hodgepodge of various conflicting psychologically abusive fairy tales, we get mad at your god in the same way we get mad at the Grinch who stole X-mas.
They then argue that since God is a murderer he can’t be moral and therefore should not be followed.
 That's because according to Ezra 1:1 and Daniel 4:33 and numerous other bible passages, god has an ability to get people to do what he wants without having to resort to bloodshed.
This is why the meme’s second part is written. They essentially are saying, “Since your God is a immoral murdering God, you have no right to criticize my moral” However this approach to these things is in error and we will show why.

Killing and Murder

To those who say God murders I pose the following thoughts: Is it immoral for a child to drown Or just to be drowned?
 Wait until you come home to find that somebody drowned your child in the bathtub, then you'll appreciate how stupid your questions are.
If we say it is immoral to be drowned, then it is the act of a moral agent that we are objecting to and this means that we are putting the issue of killing someone into the category of moral wrong rather than someone simply dying.
 No, your god directly caused the death of another person in circumstances that do not imply god's need for self-defense. They did not simply "die", they were KILLED.  At least, that's what your fairy tale alleges.
This is to say there is a categorical difference between a moral wrong and a tragedy.
 Correct, but your god claims responsibility for ALL murder and death, so you are incorrect, biblically, to pretend there's a distinction between a moral agent killing somebody, and a tragedy:
 39 'See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand. (Deut. 32:39 NAU)
Therefore if we are talking about a moral agent killing another we must ask if a moral agent can possess authority or moral justification for allowing, or acting out the killing of another.
 Not if one party to the dispute is saying the moral agent at issue is nothing but a fictional character. 
Let’s put this in a form of a syllogism:
1. Killing is not murder or even a crime when justified or when the taker of a life has the authority to do so.
 Fictional characters have no real-world authority.
2. Authority or justification can be possessed by a moral agent
 Correct.  But since you don't agree with the authority the Nazis had to murder Jews, then a moral agent's possession of "authority" doesn't end the dispute, as the higher authority might itself be corrupt.  In the case of your god, your higher authority is indeed corrupt. Read Deut. 28:15-63, then tell me this god doesn't fit the profile of a sadistic lunatic.
3. Not all killing is murder
Correct, but irrelevant.  If war separates a mother from her child, and she later comes home to find the child dead in the rubble, the sense of moral outrage that causes her to grieve is going to manifest itself regardless of whether or not the political authorities that participated in the war reach agreement about who was in the right.  That is, human beings naturally oppose the death of a loved one where that death was not clearly justified, so you and your god can hardly blame a person for not seeing a meaningful distinction between killing and murder, as they lay sobbing over the dead body of a family member.
4. Therefore, you can kill someone and not be morally wrong.
 In this current social structure, yes, but morality is not absolute.  Very small children will imitate anything, including law-breaking behaviors by their immediate family.  Your idea that god put his laws into our hearts is total bullshit, and has zero empirical evidence to back it up, while there is plenty of empirical evidence that mammals grow up to imitate the behavior they learned from their parents or others, along with a dose of genetic predisposition.
The point here is this: A moral agent can possess the authority to take the life of another.
 Your analogy fails because human authority to kill comes from an authority higher than the human who did the killing.  So when you say your god has "authority" to kill, you are using the same terminology that in other contexts implies there exists an authority higher than the moral agent doing the killing.  Since you think your god is the highest possible authority, you need to stop characterizing the situation by using imperfect human analogies. 
So does God possess this authority? Is he justified in his taking of human life?
 Those questions are irrelevant under your own presupposition that there is no higher authority than god himself.  To be consistent, you'd have to say that god just does what he does, and he is never accountable to anybody else for anything he does, ever.
Let’s looks at some specifics for both man and God as Christians view the situation that supports God possessing the justification and authority, to take any human life resulting in that God did nothing morally wrong.
 Thanks for specifying you aren't doing apologetics here. You've said exactly NOTHING that would do any harm to the atheist bible critic's beliefs.  You simply quote the bible and regurgitate a Christian form of "might makes right".
About Man
A seeming assumption in the meme is that the people involved are somehow innocent. Scripture clearly demonstrates this is not the case. In the specific instances often cited, like in the flood or Canaan judgment, scripture mentions that the people were wicked, violent, or evil.
But as we'll find out, they were not nearly as wicked, violent or evil as you think they were.  Your apologetics sources are guilty of misinterpreting the bible and of having no extra-biblical support for saying the pagans around ancient Israel were unspeakably atrocious.
The Canaanites are somehow painted as if they are these peaceful loving people groups dwelling in Canaan that God just somehow chose to destroy.
 Our problem is less with the adult pagans and more with the young children pagans.  What did a 3 year old Amalakite do to "deserve" being beaten to death (commenting in Psalm 137:9, "The barbarous practice referred to in v 9 was a feature of ancient Near Eastern warfare."Allen, L. C. (2002). Vol. 21: Word Biblical Commentary : Psalms 101-150 (Revised). Word Biblical Commentary (Page 309). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.)
But is this the case? No. Apologetics Press sufficiently explains why God moved to pass judgment on the nations of Canaan,

“The Canaanite nations were punished because of their extreme wickedness. God did not cast out the Canaanites for being a particular race or ethnic group. God did not send the Israelites into the land of Canaan to destroy a number of righteous nations. On the contrary, the Canaanite nations were horribly depraved. They practiced “abominable customs” (Leviticus 18:30) and did “detestable things” (Deuteronomy 18:9, NASB). They practiced idolatry, witchcraft, soothsaying, and sorcery. They attempted to cast spells upon people and call up the dead (Deuteronomy 18:10-11).
And what are you going to do next?  Quote pre-WW2 Nazi propaganda to "prove" that the Jews are a lower form of life?  All you are doing is quoting the after-the-fact rationalizations of later redactors responsible for the final canonical form of the biblical information we now possess, redactors clearly biased in favor of the biblical account.  While bias doesn't necessarily show error, the bias of the biblical writers is sufficiently extreme that only a fool would pretend that the biblical accounts are strictly confined to the actual facts.  This is even more the case for any apologist who thinks Copan and Flannagan's "hyperbole" explanation for the "kill 'em all" stuff in the Pentateuch is serious.  If the ancient writers were just exaggerating in such descriptions, we also have to wonder what else the biblical authors exaggerated.
Their “cultic practice was barbarous and thoroughly licentious” (Unger, 1954, p. 175). Their “deities…had no moral character whatever,” which “must have brought out the worst traits in their devotees and entailed many of the most demoralizing practices of the time,” including sensuous nudity, orgiastic nature-worship, snake worship, and even child sacrifice (Unger, p. 175; cf. Albright, 1940, p. 214).
First, Zeus was also known as a sexual lusting god, so do you suppose that everybody who worshiped Zeus was just a carbon copy of him morally?

Second, I see nothing particularly "depraved" about sensuous nudity, or orgiastic nature-worship, there are people who do this today, but it does not cause them to be vicious criminals. 

Third, the Israelites were commanded to engage in snake-worship by God through Moses as follows:
  7 So the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned, because we have spoken against the LORD and you; intercede with the LORD, that He may remove the serpents from us." And Moses interceded for the people.
 8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live."
 9 And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.   (Num. 21:7-9 NAU)
 If believing in the Son of Man means "worshiping" him, as it obviously does, then Jesus understood this OT incident to involve snake-worship, not merely a literal "looking" to the snake:
14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. (Jn. 3:14-15 NAU)
Your god is rather stupid; the creator of the cosmos, who is so apparently infinitely wise regarding how to handle sin, couldn't think of anything better to turn away his wrath upon Israelite sin, than to command the sinners to worship a snake?   Christian inerrantist scholar R.D. Cole seems to think the "looking" to the snake constituted a form of belief...in a social context that was rife with serpent worship:  
The verb translated “look” (rā˒â) often carries with it the idea to see with belief or understanding, and it is to be so interpreted in this context...The use of the copper or bronze serpent form in the worship context of the Sinai region has been attested through the excavated remains of a temple at Timna, located on the west side of the Arabah about fifteen miles north of Elat and Aqaba on the gulf.
Cole, R. D. (2001, c2000). Vol. 3B: Numbers (electronic ed.). Logos Library System;
The New American Commentary (Page 349). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers
 Yes, snake-worship was popular in the ANE



 Source is Unger, here.

 Other Christian scholars admit it is difficult to know where in this story the etiology ends and history begins, if at all:
We include here the story of the serpents (21:4–9). The text appears to have as its background a priestly etiology justifying the cult of Nehushtan. The ideological interests at the root of such stories and their adaptations make it very difficult for a historian to extract ancient history from them.
Budd, P. J. (2002). Vol. 5: Word Biblical Commentary : Numbers.
Word Biblical Commentary (Page xxvii). Dallas: Word, Incorporated
 The story has in fact a cultic orientation, and may be based on a cultic etiology of Nehushtan. In the Yahwist’s hands the story is directed specifically against the cult, which was apparently attacked by Hezekiah (2 Kgs 18:4). This cult may have celebrated Yahweh’s protective power, but it was probably also a healing cult with strong Canaanite associations, and deriving ultimately from Canaanite sources.
(Id p. 235)

Furthermore, the Israelites in Numbers were prone to idolatry and making god mad anyway (Numbers 21:5, see also ch. 25), so your god is even "extra" stupid if he 'expected' these idolaters to "look to" a snake sign and yet successfully resist the temptation to view it as a god.  You may as well deliver 20 large pizzas to the hungry drunks at a poverty stricken frat party and then "expect" them to successfully resist the urge to eat.
As Moses wrote, the inhabitants of Canaan would “burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods” (Deuteronomy 12:30).
First, Frank Turek makes the same claim and I trounced him on it, showing there is no compelling historical evidence saying the kids were alive when placed in the fire.  See here.  So the one part of the story that helps make "god's" harsh judgment seem more "deserved", is actually missing from the evidence.  At that point, the objective person will have severe difficulty distinguishing between those who kill children and then cremate the corpses (Canaanites), and those who massacre children and just leave their carcasses for the animals (Israelites).

Third, there is biblical evidence that "pass through the fire" did not involve the death of the child: Hezekiah had a son named Manasseh, who later became king (2nd Kings 20:21).   In 2nd Kings 21, Manasseh made his "son" (singular) "pass through the fire" (v. 6), then a few verses later Manasseh's "son" (singular) becomes king (v. 18), yet nothing in the context expresses or implies that this specific Manasseh had any more than one son:
1 Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned fifty-five years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Hephzibah.
 2 He did evil in the sight of the LORD, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD dispossessed before the sons of Israel.
 3 For he rebuilt the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he erected altars for Baal and made an Asherah, as Ahab king of Israel had done, and worshiped all the host of heaven and served them.
 4 He built altars in the house of the LORD, of which the LORD had said, "In Jerusalem I will put My name."
 5 For he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.
 6 He made his son pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and used divination, and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD provoking Him to anger.
 7 Then he set the carved image of Asherah that he had made, in the house of which the LORD said to David and to his son Solomon, "In this house and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen from all the tribes of Israel, I will put My name forever.
 8 "And I will not make the feet of Israel wander anymore from the land which I gave their fathers, if only they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that My servant Moses commanded them."
 9 But they did not listen, and Manasseh seduced them to do evil more than the nations whom the LORD destroyed before the sons of Israel.
 10 Now the LORD spoke through His servants the prophets, saying,
 11 "Because Manasseh king of Judah has done these abominations, having done wickedly more than all the Amorites did who were before him, and has also made Judah sin with his idols;
 12 therefore thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Behold, I am bringing such calamity on Jerusalem and Judah, that whoever hears of it, both his ears will tingle.
 13 'I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria and the plummet of the house of Ahab, and I will wipe Jerusalem as one wipes a dish, wiping it and turning it upside down.
 14 'I will abandon the remnant of My inheritance and deliver them into the hand of their enemies, and they will become as plunder and spoil to all their enemies;
 15 because they have done evil in My sight, and have been provoking Me to anger since the day their fathers came from Egypt, even to this day.'"
 16 Moreover, Manasseh shed very much innocent blood until he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another; besides his sin with which he made Judah sin, in doing evil in the sight of the LORD.
 17 Now the rest of the acts of Manasseh and all that he did and his sin which he committed, are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah?
 18 And Manasseh slept with his fathers and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza, and Amon his son became king in his place. (2 Ki. 21:1-18 NAU)
 Additionally, that Israel didn't seriously believe their own unique theological system was superior to that of the pagans, may be inferred from the fact that the OT also says Israel burned their sons and daughters in the fire:
 13 Yet the LORD warned Israel and Judah through all His prophets and every seer, saying, "Turn from your evil ways and keep My commandments, My statutes according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you through My servants the prophets."  14 However, they did not listen, but stiffened their neck like their fathers, who did not believe in the LORD their God. 
15 They rejected His statutes and His covenant which He made with their fathers and His warnings with which He warned them. And they followed vanity and became vain, and went after the nations which surrounded them, concerning which the LORD had commanded them not to do like them. 
16 They forsook all the commandments of the LORD their God and made for themselves molten images, even two calves, and made an Asherah and worshiped all the host of heaven and served Baal. 
17 Then they made their sons and their daughters pass through the fire, and practiced divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him. 
18 So the LORD was very angry with Israel and removed them from His sight; none was left except the tribe of Judah. 
19 Also Judah did not keep the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the customs which Israel had introduced. 
20 The LORD rejected all the descendants of Israel and afflicted them and gave them into the hand of plunderers, until He had cast them out of His sight. (2 Ki. 17:13-20 NAU)
Mast continues:
The Canaanite nations were anything but “innocent.”
 Once again, the more acute problem is the massacre of the Canaanite kids, not the adults.
In truth, “[t]hese Canaanite cults were utterly immoral, decadent, and corrupt, dangerously contaminating and thoroughly justifying the divine command to destroy their devotees” (Unger, 1988). They were so nefarious that God said they defiled the land and the land could stomach them no longer—“the land vomited out its inhabitants” (Leviticus 18:25).
Once again, the problem is more with the slaughter of Canaanite children, less so the adults.
When it comes to the flood incident we are given some further information about the current condition of mankind aside from Genesis 6:5.
 And that "further information" comes from an anonymous source, god knows how many redactors it went through in the 1400 years before the 1st century, yet you pretend that the final canonical form is sufficiently unbiased as to be considered reliable.  And it's folklore at that.  The degree to which the account is even talking about reality is debated between Christians, between young earth and old earth creationists, and between conservatives and liberals. 
Genesis 6:11-12 also states that, “Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence. And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.” This ‘corruption’ is sin and not only were all people then in sin but even today we are all in a state of sin. Romans 3:23 states“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” to be honest I think most anyone would at least not argue with the fact mankind is far from perfect. This imperfection cast us as falling short of God’s glory or perfection. This is sin and it stains us, leaving  us in a fallen condition that merits nothing other than death and separation from this perfect God (Romans 6:23).
preaching to the choir.

About God

God is described as the maximally great being.
 Not if Genesis 6:6-7 has anything to say about it.  Go head, google "anthropomorphism" to death: let me know when you find any textual or contextual justification for saying v. 6-7 were intended any less literally than the details in the verses prior to and following 6-7.
God by definition possesses properties that make him maximally great.
 Why not just say "the open-theist Christians are wrong", and tell yourself classical theism is too obviously biblical to need any argument?
To be perfect, rather than imperfect, is certainly a great making property and so God is therefore perfect in every way, which includes being the good itself.
If God was perfect before creating the universe, he'd have been perfectly "content", and would thus not have had any desire to cause his reality to be more complicated than it already was.  God's choice to create makes it reasonable to assume he was starting to get bored or lonely, or both, which would mean his attribute of perfect contentment became lost...a sign of imperfection.
1 Timothy 6:16 further describes God as “who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light”. This would be one of many ways the scriptures talk about God uniqueness and holiness. Sadly, our understanding of God’s holiness even for the church in our current culture is severely lacking and even more so with skeptics who want to question God’s character. This lack of understanding is then combined with a misunderstanding of man’s condition before such a perfect being.
preaching to the choir.
God as the maximally great being who is author, sustainer, and creator of life is the sole authority in these matters. Mankind is dead in sin and unable to approach a Holy God. Since God is the good God WONT murder. God didn’t murder when he wiped out life on earth in the flood because he possesses the authority to take it, and he has the justification for doing so. God is under no obligation to sustain the life of anyone who merits death due to sin.
Ditto.
Thus we can wrap up all this in 3 simple points:
1. There is a difference between murder and justified killing and that lies in authority.
2. God has ultimate authority over all life and death.
3. Therefore, God has the authority to kill anyone at any time.
If Hitler had become a world-dictator, he'd also have had authority to kill as he saw fit, but that wouldn't stop the victims from protesting.  And since you don't have any good evidence for a creator anyway, we have to decide for ourselves how far we will toy with you and these thought-experiments before we finally invoke the fully justified "fairy tale" wildcard and send you home empty handed.
To all this one might question why we must care about God's alleged authority. One may answer that you don’t necessarily have to care! God created human beings with limited libertarian freedom that allowed us to sin.
Despite the fact that in 1st Corinthians 15 and Revelation, it is apparent that after we get to heaven we will authentically love and worship god without having the ability to sin...implying that God could have simply created Adam and Eve with the same constitution of will, and presto: they wouldn't have needed the freedom to sin, in order to authentically love god.  Once again, your god is nothing but a fictional character in a theological fantasy whose original creators didn't think through its ramifications very thoroughly.  They made their god in their own inconsistent image.
Adam and Eve had a choice, as do we, as to our actions. Do we obey God and his commands that seek our good?
 If you were an army man serving the Medes in 700 b.c., would you have obeyed god's "stirring" you up to commit rape (Isaiah 13:16-17)?  If you find out you are among the armies of 'gog' and 'magog' in Ezekiel 38-39, would you acknowledge that your desire to war against Israel was because their god was drawing you against Israel with the same level of power that one puts a ring through the nose of an animal and draws it along along?  Or will you argue that Ezekiel's Calvinistic view of divine sovereignty indicates he shouldn't have been allowed into the canon? Or maybe this is yet another among the growing list of exaggerations and hyperbole that bible authors engage in?  Perhaps the biblical statements that god loves sinners are also exaggerations?  Were the NT authors inspired by the same god of hyperbole that Copan and Flannagan say inspired the Pentateuch?
Or do we exercise that freedom? Just remember that the freedom to sin is the definition of rebellion and of which we are all guilty of and as stated that rebellion has a cost.
One has to wonder whether you have any non-emotional argument for even suggesting that those who die in infancy go straight to heaven.  That's a nice thought, but the bible nowhere supports it, and even seems to condemn it when it says children of unbelievers are "unclean" (1st Cor. 7:14).  Worse, your flood-god caused lots of small children to suffer the horror of drowning, so you cannot say it is obvious that God would spare children the kind of fate that adults usually receive.  No he doesn't.  Keep pushing the need to believe in Jesus as the only way to get saved, and you wind up saying those who are stained with original sin and die in infancy, go to hell, and having nothing but emotion-based arguments to counter with.  Blame this on the stupid biblical authors who didn't uphold modern American ethics when they wrote.
Good News

Often overlooked in these objections by skeptics and unbelievers is what God has done for them. God doesn’t merely stand by waiting for the perfect time to pass judgment on us all, though we certainly deserve it.
 Tell that to the parents who come home to find their children murdered.  If God wasn't "merely standing by", what else was he doing?  Trying and failing to hold back the bullets?  Oh, I forgot, God was the one who was causing those men to kill those kids, Deuteronomy 32:39.  My bad.
Scripture instead demonstrates a God who is patient and merciful. As Ephesians 2:1-10 states,
“And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.[b] 4 But[c] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”
preaching to the choir.
God is a God of not only Justice and wrath against sin but of Love and mercy. We all deserve God’s just wrath
 And since you seriously believe the teenager who steals bubble gum from a store deserves an eternity of roasting in hell or some other form of irreversible shame and depression, I can understand why you make unsupported blanket statements that defy all common sense.  Fundie religion does that to the mind.
but he offers freely his love and mercy.
Sometimes love is not properly expressed except by force to protect the rebellious one from the consequences of their own obstinacy, such as wrenching a child from the middle of the street so they don't get run over.  Apparently your god is like the drunk father who sees the danger coming, but then says "hey, I told you to get out of the street, so if you don't obey me, you have nobody else to blame but yourself if you get ran over."  If that's what god's "love" is like, I'm more than reasonable to say "fuck you".


The rest of your worthless choir-preaching was snipped as useless and repetitive.

My reply to Bellator Christi's "Three Dangerous Forms of Modern Idolatry"

I received this in my email, but the page it was hosted on appears to have been removed  =====================  Bellator Christi Read on blo...