Showing posts with label Habermas. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Habermas. Show all posts

Thursday, December 20, 2018

Message to Dennis Ingolfsland: No, Jesus didn't rise from the dead, if your arguments are the best you can do

This is my reply to an article by Dennis Ingolfsland entitled

 
Christians around the world will soon celebrate Easter in remembrance of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
 While being ignorant of just how poorly supported that hypothesis is historically.  I say that after reviewing Craig's, Licona's and Habermas' best efforts otherwise.
Most people understand, however, that no one comes back to life after being dead for “three days.” How could any intelligent person believe such a thing?
 Good question.  
We could be cynical and say the key word is “intelligent” but there are many people with Ph.D.’s who believe that Jesus rose from the dead. What reasons could they possibly have?
One thing appears certain, they don't have any explanation for why Jesus' family rejected his claims during his earthly ministry.
First, Jesus’ crucifixion is considered to be historical fact. It is confirmed even by ancient non-Christian sources like Josephus, Lucian and Mara Bar Serapion. In addition, since crucifixion was considered such a shameful way to die, most biblical scholars don’t believe Christians would have invented a crucifixion story that would expose them to ridicule and hinder the spread of their message.

Second, Jesus’ tomb was found empty.
My explanation for the empty tomb is easy:  it is nothing but legendary embellishment.  I do not believe Jesus was perceived by the Romans or Jews to be anywhere near the significant threat that the gospels pretend they perceived him to be.  Jesus was a common blasphemous criminal whose miracle claims were even denied by his own family, most of whom were allegedly absent from the crucifixion, and after the authorities were satisfied he was really dead, they didn't give two shits what happened to his body, nor about his alleged claims that he would rise from the dead.  All this malarkey about the Jews complained that Jesus predicted his own resurrection and thus the disciples might steal the body then claim the prophecy came true, is total bullshit. 

Either way, there was a period of time between a disciple of Jesus burying him in a tomb, and the arrival of the guards at that tomb, for foul play to occur.  If the guards could be bribed with money to say they were asleep on the job and that's how the body disappeared (the biblical excuse that would render them deserving of the death penalty) they would be more susceptible to a bribe from the "rich" Joseph of Arimathea to tell a lie that would not warrant the death penalty (i.e., when we came to the tomb to guard it, we found the body already missing).  And indeed the guards would find that particular lie more attractive since the emptiness of the tomb would be exactly what they in fact experienced, and having been gone during the foul play, their boss could not be reasonably expected to fault them for the loss of the body while it was outside their custodial reach.  All they need to do is avoid saying that they accepted a bribe to tell that story.  They arrived, the body was already gone, simple.

Or even easier:  when the guards arrived, the body was already missing, somebody had stolen the body before the guards arrived.  No need to bribe, simply march back to headquarters and report the body went missing before the guards arrived.

You will say "Matthew 27:60 says Joe rolled a large stone against the tomb, so it was secure before the guards got there!"

Really? If Joe could move the stone over the mouth of the tomb, somebody could also roll it away before the guards got there.  The only way you can avoid this is to sinfully add to the word of the Lord and pretend that when it says "he" rolled the stone, it really means a group of men.  But even that doesn't work, since if a group of men could roll it in place, another group, like the disciples, could roll it away before the guards arrived.


Regardless, the empty tomb dies under my theory that Mark intended to end at 16:8, which means the earliest gospel had nothing to say about anybody actually seeing the risen Christ.  Nothing you do with the empty tomb theory can overcome the historical problems created by Mark's unwillingness to say people actually saw the risen Christ.
All four biblical Gospels claim that Jesus’ tomb was empty (as does the second century “Gospel of Peter). The Gospels are unanimous in presenting women as the first eyewitnesses to the empty tomb.
 But Paul's "creed" in 1st Cor. 15 doesn't mention the women, and you cannot show that your explanatory theory (female testimony not considered reliable) is more plausible than the skeptical theory (the version of the story Paul heard did not involve women being the first witnesses).  After all, it was Paul himself who believed women were not inferior to men. 

And your "unanimous" argument is weak, if we give credence to the majority scholarly Christian consensus that Matthew and Luke borrowed most of their gospel material from Mark.  Gee, the copy reflects the source?
Since women were not regarded as reliable witnesses in those days,
 Apparently you are unaware that a religion called Christianity started with the testimony of women...which shows that the Christians themselves, who made up this resurrection story, didn't view female testimony as negatively as non-Christians did.  So don't forget about the Christians.
even many skeptical scholars are convinced that early Christians would not fabricate a story in which the earliest eyewitnesses were thought to be unreliable.
It's not typical Jews saying the women were the first eyewitnesses, it is Christians who tell this gospel story, and the Christian view of women wasn't as negative as the non-Christian view.
The earliest explanation for the empty tomb is found in the Gospel of Matthew which says that the guards reported that someone stole the body while they slept (if they were sleeping, how would they know)?
 Your question is precisely why that story doesn't ring true.  Were the guards so stupid, they didn't anticipate that their boss would naturally ask "how could you possibly know what happened to the body, if it happened while you were asleep?"  Furthermore, to lose the guarded object would likely warrant severe punishment possibly including execution, making it highy unlikely the guards would be willing to tell such a tale. 

You are also forgetting that Joseph of Arimathea, allegedly the guy who buried Jesus, was "rich" (Matthew 27:57), and thus it is equally as plausible to suggest that Joe bribed the guards to say "the body was gone when we first arrived at the tomb".  Between Matthew 27:60-62, a full day transpired between Joseph burying Jesus and the arrival of the guards. 

You will insist they would surely check that the body was still there before sealing the tomb, but on the contrary, modern history is plagued with examples in which the authorities did a shocking piss-poor job of evidence collection and otherwise violated common sense in their effort to secure evidence.  Combined with Joe's being rich and thus having capacity to offer the guards even more money than the earlier Jews who first bribed the guards, you are a fool to pretend that Matthew's version is the most historically plausible version of the events.

And if the body was indeed gone when the guards arrived, they could truthfully say to their boss that the body was missing when they arrived, and this misleading impression would carry far less risk to their lives than the bullshit "disciples-stole-the-body-while-we-were-asleep" yarn that no fool would fall for. Since Joe's bribing the guards this way makes them far less prone to the fearful penalties of failing their task, Joe's bribing the guards to truthfully say the body was gone when they first arrived, sounds like the more likely historical truth.  Feel free to keep your own theory alive by speculating that the guards were retarded, drunk or stupid but sheer possibilities can never trump the probability you just read.
The stolen body theory might explain why the tomb was empty but we would still have to account for the stories that say Jesus was seen alive after his death.
I do account for them.  They are legendary embellishments, because they only appear in the later gospels, the earliest gospel, Mark, stops at 16:8, exactly the point where Matthew and Luke diverge.  Doesn't matter if Marcan priority is technically false, reasonableness doesn't require accuracy or comprehensive rebuttal to counter-theories.  Markan priority is what most Christian scholars agree with, so its obviously reasonable to accept.  If any reader wishes to mount the case against Markan priority, they can consider themselves invited to try.
Some have suggested that Jesus survived the crucifixion. Most biblical scholars find this unconvincing. Three crucified friends of Josephus (a first century historian) were taken off their crosses after only a few hours. Although all of them presumably received medical attention, two of them died the same day, and the third one died shortly thereafter. An article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (March 21, 1986) concluded that theories about Jesus’ survival are contrary to the evidence. Even if Jesus had survived, however, it seems a bit silly to think that early Christians would have hailed this very bruised and broken man (most likely in critical condition) as their resurrected Messiah!
 I don't bother with such foolishness.  Dismissed.  Next?
Third, Jesus was believed to have appeared alive physically after his execution (Matthew 28:9; Luke 24:39-43; John 20:17, 27-28). Recent scholars have argued that in the Gospels we are in touch with what early Christians believed about Jesus.
 But most scholars deny the apostolic authorship of the gospels, so without good argument that they are wrong, to trust the word of the canonical gospels is to trust the word of several different authors and redactors, whose unique contributions making up the final canonical form can no longer be distinguished from the "original", a situation you'd scream your head off about, if the eyewitness affidavit showing you committed murder, suffered the same degree of multiple authorship and textual changes and borrowing extensively from a prior similar affidavit.

But the fact that Matthew and Luke often "tone down" Mark's version of things might indicate that these two gospel authors didn't view Mark as inerrant.  If they thought Mark's choice of wording was "inerrant", then what could possibly motivate them to think inerrant wording inspired by God needed the least bit of alteration?
Regardless of whether anyone today believes their stories, it is beyond reasonable doubt that the Gospel writers taught that the resurrection of Jesus was physical, not merely “spiritual.”
 Agreed.
Even Ignatius, writing shortly after the last New Testament book was written, said that that Jesus was still in the flesh after his resurrection.
Years before the Gospels were written St. Paul also affirmed the physical resurrection of Jesus. In First Corinthians—which even the most skeptical scholars believe is genuine
 You mean the epistle that shows that some of the Christians in his church irrationally denied the possibility of resurrection from the dead?  1st Cor. 15:12.  Isn't that about as believable as followers of Paul who deny the existence of God?  Gee, what could have motivated these "some" to conclude that resurrection doesn't happen? It couldn't be their serious investigation into the gospel sources, could it? 
—Paul writes that the resurrected Jesus was seen by more than 500 people.
A fact the gospels don't mention, a fact gospel authors wouldn't likely remain silent about if they knew such a thing had happened.

Paul also said he would pretend to believe things he didn't truly believe, if he felt doing so would help him gain converts.  1st Cor, 9:20-21.  When Paul circumcised Timothy "because of the Jews (Acts 16:3), what was he saying while using the knife?  Maybe "all things in my Jewish past that were gain to me, like my heritage and circumcision, I count as dung "(Phil. 3:8)?

Paul also confessed, that, 14 years after the fact, he still couldn't tell whether his flying into the sky happened to his physical body or only to his spirit. 2nd Cor. 12:1-4.  And you set forth this hack as if his credibility is beyond question? FUCK YOU.
It seems pretty clear that Paul is not intending to say that 500 people had hallucinations or visions!
 No, that's not clear at all.  Mass hallucination does not require that the exact same mental image be shared by everybody during the experience, only that they are all having the same general delusion.  Just look at today's Pentecostals.  They insist they are all slain by the single selfsame Holy Spirit, but that hardly implies that they are claiming to have shared the exact same mental images during the experience.  once you correct that misunderstanding, mass hallucination becomes a far more likely candidate.  It's what happened at Fatima.
Not only that, but Paul uses the word “resurrection” to describe what happened to Jesus. Resurrection” meant that the body came back to life, not that the spirit lived on after death which is something most people believed anyway.
 Paul is not credible.  If he wanted to say Jesus' body came back to life, he could have done so in a couple of paragraphs instead of a whole chapter going off into eotericc nonsense about how the glory of the sun is different than the glory of the moon, etc.  Paul apparently knew how to phrase things in order to convey that Jesus' flesh came back to life, see Acts 2:31.

Worse for Paul, he allegedly could have simply quoted the specific resurrection tradition unique to his follower Luke, namely, that when Jesus rose, he proved he wasn't a spirit (Luke 24:39).  Paul's choice to go into a mile-long rant about spiritual bodies makes me suspicious that the matter of his belief about resurrection is a bit more complex that you are letting on.

What you appear to have overlooked is that Paul felt his bodily resurrection beliefs needed to be taught to the Corinthians because some were denying the whole idea.  It's hard to believe that Paul would have taken this much time to correct them, if their denial of bodily resurrection was "clear" error.  How much time would you spend with a "Trinitarian" who denies that the Holy Spirit is a person?   I thus reasonably conjecture that the reason Paul devoted so much time to the subject is because exactly how Jesus "rose" was NOT "clear" to the Corinthians, but rather a subject of significant dispute.
In Second Corinthians, Paul reminds his readers of the persecution he faced for preaching the gospel, including imprisonment, beatings and life-threatening danger like being stoned (with real stones)!
 My grandpa also told me lots of stories from WW2, which under your trusting logic apparently means I have no choice but to assume he was incapable of exaggerating what really happened to make it more dramatic.
Paul was so convinced of the resurrection that he staked his whole life on it!
Paul started out persecuting the Christian violently, then suddenly started agreeing with them.  I don't have a lot of faith in people who can teleport between two such extremes at the speed of light.  I'm also suspicious that Paul's tendency to go to extremes likely manifested itself by him exaggerating what really happened to him.  Yes, grandpa was in the army and suffered many things.  No, that doesn't mean every shocking detail he related was the historical truth.  You also overlook that Paul was aware that his churches couldn't easily "check" his facts, unless they were willing to take dangerous first-century trips over long distances, which would involve leaving their families and jobs, sacrifices most people in honor/shame cultures would have difficulty with unless they were rich and bored.  I see no motive for Paul to fear he might be caught lying.  Look at Benny Hinn, any fool can tell that asshole is nothing but a con artist...but does the prospect of being exposed bother Hinn in the least?  NO. 

And you know what sinners will do if they think they can get away with it.  Paul himself said all men should be presumed to be liars.
Many other early Christians staked their lives on the same conviction.
 They were deluded Pentecostals just like Paul.  Did you have a point?
Finally, the resurrection of Jesus could be treated as a historical hypothesis; a hypothesis which explains a lot that is difficult to explain otherwise. For example:
The hypothesis of Jesus’ resurrection explains the conversion of Paul.
A stupid internally conflicted extremist would also explain Paul's radical shift in thinking.
By his own testimony Paul had violently opposed Christianity.
Something also not corroborated by any independent or first-hand source.  Once again, its just grandpa embellishing the historical truth to make it more dramatically memorable.
How did this rabid opponent of Christianity became one of its most ardent promoters?
Maybe the way a know-nothing farm boy became the founder of Mormonism?  Claim a vision, seek gullible followers, and wait a few years to see if the plan works?

Also, you don't know what exact historical accidents happened so that among all the Christian talkers of the first century, Paul ended up having the most popularity.
Paul himself would say it was due to his conviction that Jesus had risen.
And Benny Hinn lies when telling people they are healed. An obvious liar, easily verfied, yet the harsh truth doesn't slow him down at all.
The hypothesis of Jesus’ resurrection explains the change in worship from the Sabbath to the first day of the week.
 More correctly, the belief that Jesus rose, would explain this.  The hypothesis of Santa Claus would also explain presents under the tree that nobody claims responsibility for.
Sabbath observance was so central to ancient Jewish identity that for Jewish Christians (The earliest Christians were all Jewish) to start worshiping on Sunday would be more shocking than if PETA started sacrificing puppies!
 No, you are just falsely classifying all first-century Jews as extreme devotees, when in fact that was hardly the case.  Cornelius was allegedly a "devout" follower of Judaism, yet he didn't even recognize that worship of human beings constituted idolatry.  Acts 10:25-26.
It would demand an explanation. Belief that Jesus had risen on the first day of the week would explain the change.
 Lots of false hypotheses would also explain the evidence in a murder trial, that hardly does anything to help answer the question of what actually DID happen.
This hypothesis also explains the continuation of the Jesus movement even after his death.
 Well then, since Mormonism continued to grow after Smith and Young died...
Many Jews expected their Messiah to kick the Romans out of Judea.
 Probably because the OT made it fairly clear that the messiah would be nothing more than an earthly ruler.
When the Romans crushed these Messiah wannabees their movements always died with them. Only in the case of Jesus did the movement continue after his death.
Incorrect, the Jesus-cult died out before the 5th century.  That crap you call "Christianity" today is nothing close to the legalistic temple worship that constituted original Christianity.
The hypothesis would also explain the worship of Jesus by early Christians who were fiercely monotheistic Jews!
Nope, Cornelius was a "devout" Jew, and yet if you conclude he surely knew what types of worship constituted idolatry, you'd be wrong.  Acts 10, supra.   You are dishonestly painting the first-century Jews as a group of theologians who were in confident agreement about what constituted idolatry.  You are mistaken.  Philo couldn't even avoid admitting his doctrine of the Logos implied that the wisdom of God was a "second god" (Questions and Answers on Genesis 2:62) 

And don't even get me started on how hopeless it is to pretend the author of 2nd Kings 3:27 was a monotheist.  He clearly thought the Moabite deity turned the tide of the battle, that's the best explanation for the "wrath" that came against Israel after the pagan king sacrificed his son during a stand-off.  If you think that wrath was your god or something else, consider yourself challenged.
We really haven’t even scratched the surface on this topic but evidence like this has convinced even highly skeptical scholars that Jesus’ earliest followers sincerely believed that he had risen from the dead.
These skeptical scholars are quick to add, however, that we can be absolutely certain that Jesus did not rise from the dead because dead people just don’t come back to life.
 You will never show that it is irrational to use our personal pool of life experience to draw conclusions about stories whose content contradict the way we experience life to work.  How the fuck else do you expect cops and criminal investigators to detect when somebody's logically possible story sounds suspicious?  Prayer?  
Some might say that their philosophical presuppositions (faith) outweigh historical considerations.
Just like it is the philosophical presuppositions of Protestants that outweigh the historical evidence and testimony to the Catholic miracles at Fatima, Lourdes, etc.   You've already decided that Catholicism is false. Don't tell me you are Mr. Truth-Robot and you are always eager to let the chips fall where they may even when evidence potentially contradicting your chosen religion comes down the pike.  I don't fault you for choosing to make up your mind before you turn 98 years old, so you cannot fairly fault skeptics for choosing to making up their minds before they turn 98 years old either.  Life is also about arriving at conclusions, it's not limited to just being objectively open to every new theory that comes along.  I've made up my mind that Mormonism is false.  I will NEVER be open to the possibility that it might actually be true.  Now under your own religion, isn't this closed-minded stance a mark of virtue?
In the final analysis, nothing can be “proven” beyond all possible doubt.
 Which is irrelevant, since it is only stupid amateurs who think the non-existence of absolute proof is somehow compelling one way or the other.
There is always a gap that can be crossed only by faith (this is also true in science).
It's nice to know you have a Ph.d and yet you clearly understand "faith" to be something that fills in evidentiary gaps.  Perhaps that has something to do with your "passion" for Christianity.  $10 says you are either a charismatic or a Pentecostal.
Those of us who have examined the evidence, however, and have experienced what we believe to be the grace and power of God in our lives, and the witness of the Spirit in our hearts, have no trouble proclaiming with Christians around the world that He is risen indeed!
 Do you ever tell skeptics to avoid appeals to emotion?  Why?  Is there some law of the cosmos that says only Christians are allowed to do that?

Friday, June 29, 2018

Challenge to James Patrick Holding

Mr. Holding seems to specialize in red herrings.

For the last few months, he has been posting videos to his YouTube account wherein he refutes this or that hideously inconclusive skeptical objection to some aspect of the resurrection of Jesus.

Unfortunately, he has chosen to make Christianity look good by batting down the more stupid and uninformed skeptical objections, that any fool with access to Google could tell are false or likely false.

Holding apparently needs a refresher course in common sense:  The historicity of the resurrection of Jesus depends on the extent to which the testimony to that effect in the NT passes standard tests of credibility.  Telling your yammering children that the ancient Jews didn't believe in resurrected ghosts, might get rid of a couple of skeptics, but then again, me telling my own readers how stupid it is to play with live rattlesnakes might get rid of a few churches, but hardly does anything to hurt Christianity proper.

Holding needs to do videos on issues that actually matter, such as:
  • Whether unbelievers can be reasonable to refuse to use bible inerrancy as a hermeneutic.  Bible inerrancy is hotly debated by inerrantists themselves, and is denied by most Christian scholars.  It has nowhere near the universal acclaim that other hermeneutics have, such as "grammar", "immediate context", "genre", etc, therefore, there is no justification to view an otherwise contextually and grammatically justified interpretation of a bible verse as wrong, merely because it would conflict with something the bible or the human author himself said elsewhere.  So something more than "that would make the bible contradict itself!" needs to be whimpered before an otherwise contextually and grammatically justified charge of contradiction in the resurrection accounts need be rejected.
  • Why god doesn't use his disposition-changing magically coercive telepathic ability to make even the most pagan unbelievers change their minds and believe whatever he wants them to believe (Ezra 1:1, Daniel 4:33), to help today's unbelievers see the light, since God's use of such methods leaves him no excuse to bitch about how closed-minded unbelievers are.  Nothing is preventing God from using such ability except his own desire that unbelievers remain obstinate.
  • Why most bible scholars are wrong to claim modern canonical Greek Matthew is anonymous.
  • What we should infer from the fact that every church father who wanted to tell the reader what language Matthew wrote in, says it was Hebrew, while none of them declare that Matthew composed or translated in Greek, and why the obvious inference "Matthew likely didn't author or translate any Greek language gospel" should be viewed highly improbable despite its obvious merit.
  • Whether the bible provides enough information about the gospel authors themselves, aside from the question-begging assumption of their alleged gospels, so that we can reach reasonable confidence in forming a conclusion about their levels of general credibility
  • Why unbelievers should bother with the question of Matthew's authorship, when not even staunchly conservative apologists for the eyewitness authorship of the gospels, such as Dr. Richard Bauckham, are willing to say Matthew wrote it.
  • Whether, assuming Matthew saw the risen Christ and heard more teaching about the kingdom of God for a 40 day period (Acts 1:3), he would be likely to knowingly exclude such from his gospel (Matthew 28).
  • Why we should believe Mark wrote a resurrection appearance narrative that was later lost, when common sense says his requesting church would have recognized the fragile preciousness of the single autograph, and would likely have guarded against possible loss by making copies at the very earliest period before the repeated use of the original scroll or codex would cause the resurrection appearance narrative at the end to be lost.
     
  • Why we should believe Mark wrote a resurrection appearance narrative that was later lost, when common sense says the resurrection appearance story, being the most joyful part of the Christian story, would be the part most likely to be enthusiastically memorized by Mark's requesting church, so that losses through corruption of the text itself could be overcome by simply writing a new copy from memory.
  • Whether the Mary mother of Jesus in Mark 3:21 who concludes her son is insane and tries to put a stop to his public ministry (i.e., "take custody"), is the same Mary the mother of Jesus who somewhere between 30 a.d. and 65 a.d., allegedly told Matthew and Luke her prior experiences of God and angels back when she was pregnant with Jesus, and how these confirmed in various ways to her full satisfaction that Jesus was truly divine.  Since Mary thus wasn't forgetful, she was either apostate or lying.  Or Mark speaks of Mary in 3:21 as having thoughts so contrary to the nativity stories because Mark himself knew nothing about nativity stories, despite his source, Peter, being within Jesus' "inner circle", being thus especially likely to have more access to Mary and her testimony than most of the other apostles.
  • What exactly is wrong with concluding that a person as interested in the divinity of Jesus as Mark, would not likely "choose to exclude" nativity stories that strongly support his theological agenda, and therefore, Mark excludes the nativity stories probably because he doesn't know about them or thinks them false.
  • If Holding doesn't like the "Jesus couldn't do real miracles" conclusion we skeptics draw from Mark 3:21 and John 7:5, can Holding show that his own explanation for the unbelief of Jesus' immediate family is more likely true?  What?  Were Jesus' mother and brothers just brick-stupid recluses?  or maybe Holding never discovered, until about two seconds ago, that the vast majority of Christian translations of Mark 3:21 are wrong?
  • Why unbelievers should bother with John's gospel, when conservative scholars like Licona and Craig Evans admit John was not above putting words in Jesus' mouth which Jesus never spoke, and was not above allowing his theological agenda to relax his concern for historical accuracy.
  • Why apostle Paul should have shit to do with the discussion of resurrection eyewitnesses, when not even the most explicit NT accounts of Paul's interaction with the risen Christ, justify classifying Paul as an 'eyewitness'.
  •  Paul claimed that he took a trip to heaven, and that 14 years later, he still couldn't tell whether that trip was physical or spiritual (2nd Cor. 12:1-4).  If Holding were being prosecuted for a crime on the basis of the testimony of a witness whose history included such similarly wildl esoteric claims, he would surely scream his head off that the witness doesn't have enough credibility to sustain the charge.  Why then does Holding expect unbelievers to think such indecisive mystics like Paul are the least bit credible?  How can we know when a person's shockingly bizarre claims of taking nearly indescribable trips to heaven does or doesn't justify viewing their credibility as fully impeached?
  • Why unbelievers should be impressed with the "eyewitness" testimony to the resurrection, when the only such testimony that comes down to us today in first-hand form, are, at best, Matthew, John and Paul, that is, forgetting about the fatal problems of gospel authorship and the equally fatal problem of whether the resurrection stories of Matthew and John actually come from these individual men.
  • How unbelievers can be expected to give a shit about any tyrant, real or unreal, who causes men to rape women and beat children to death (Isaiah 13).  Don't forget that God also claims he will take just as much "delight" to inflict such horrors on people, as he delights to bless them (Deuteronomy 28:63).
  • Why unbelievers should think the bible god "loves" them, when in fact god's refusal to do his best to convince them the gospel is true, necessarily implies a rather shockingly limited "love" at best, and more likely implies a genuine hatred, since any parent who solely by choice did less than their best to rescue a drowning child is not exhibiting "limited" love, but "no" love.
I thus suspect that the reason Holding fucks around with the more stupid trifling skeptical objections is for the same reason any skeptic would try to refute Christianity by exposing the errors of snake-handling and the prosperity gospel.  In both cases, you can make your own beliefs look better if you choose only the most dumbshit idiots as representative of the opposition.


Go ahead, Holding, remind your readers that yes, you already had all these relevant video-topics in mind, you just didn't get around to getting serious until an atheist complained that you are spending too much time in the sandbox.  Perhaps God is telling you to stop using other people's hard earned cash merely to give you another reason to sit on your fat ass.

Thursday, May 31, 2018

Cold Case Christianity: Jesus lied about how soon he would come back

This is my reply to an article by J. Warner Wallace entitled




I often wonder precisely when the disciples of Jesus realized their important role in Christian History.
Unless they were just brick-stupid, one would expect that they would have seen so many real miracles and had so many late-night conversations with Jesus answering all of their detailed theological inquires, that they would have recognized within the first few weeks of being called by Jesus, that he was the real deal.  But unfortunately, the gospels, especially Mark, portray the disciples as unbelievably thick-headed, so that they fail to get the message even when miracles are done to their dazzled delights...suggesting the author is making them dumber than they actually were (i.e., a gospel author lying about history), so as to make the disciples' late realization of the "truth" all the more dramatic of a conclusion for the reader. 

For example, although Jesus had just previously caused a few loaves of bread and fish to be enough to feed 4,000 and 5,000 people (so about 10,000 when women and children are included), Mark's gospel says the disciples learned nothing from that incident about Christ's true nature and purpose:
 49 But when they saw Him walking on the sea, they supposed that it was a ghost, and cried out;
 50 for they all saw Him and were terrified. But immediately He spoke with them and said to them, "Take courage; it is I, do not be afraid."
 51 Then He got into the boat with them, and the wind stopped; and they were utterly astonished,
 52 for they had not gained any insight from the incident of the loaves, but their heart was hardened.   (Mk. 6:49-52 NAU)
This, despite God's having the magical ability to stir their hearts to believe whatever He wanted them to believe, as can be seen from God exercising this power in the case of pagan unbelievers like King Cyrus or King Pul or King Sihon, to cause them to do good or evil:
 30 "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today. (Deut. 2:30 NAU)

 1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he sent a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying:
 2 "Thus says Cyrus king of Persia, 'The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and He has appointed me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. (Ezr. 1:1-2 NAU)

 26 So the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul, king of Assyria, even the spirit of Tilgath-pilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away into exile, namely the Reubenites, the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh, and brought them to Halah, Habor, Hara and to the river of Gozan, to this day. (1 Chr. 5:26 NAU)
Wallace continues:
As these men sat at the feat of Jesus and listened to everything He had to say, did they realize they would someday testify to everything He said and did?
 Assuming Jesus did real miracles, the answer favored by historical probabilities is "yes". 

If my pastor suddenly started calming storms, walking on water, and magically causing one box of fish sticks and three loaves of bread to become enough to feed 10,000 people with 12 baskets leftover, and I could not think of any naturalistic explanation for such events, I'd have little difficulty accepting whatever claims he made about himself.  So again, if the gospels are generally accurate about Jesus' miracle working ability, the gospel authors are more than likely making the disciples dumber than they actually were...which leaves us with gospel authors who are willing to lie about what happened in history for the sake of making the story more interesting.  Us skeptics say "fuck you" to dishonest ancient historians.  Perhaps because of this we are storing up divine wrath for ourselves?  Let's just say I don't exactly lose sleep wondering "what if I'm wrong!?!", any more than Christians lose sleep wondering "what if the Muslim version of hell is true?"
Most eyewitnesses I’ve interviewed in my casework had no idea they would later be called into a jury trial to testify about what they heard or observed.
Probably because they had never met some miracle worker claiming to initiate the  kingdom of god into the world.
As a result, they sometimes regret not paying better attention when they had the opportunity. But the disciples of Jesus had a distinct advantage over modern eyewitnesses in this regard. They were students of Jesus. Unlike spontaneous, unprepared witnesses of a crime, the disciples were desperately attentive to the words and actions of Jesus, and I imagine their attention to detail became even more focused with each miraculous event.
Not at all.  You've apparently never read Mark 6:49-52, where the gospel author admits the disciples failed to infer the truth about Jesus from his prior miracle of magically multiplying a small amount of food into enough for 10,000 people, making the disciples a bit more thick-headed than historical probabilities would counsel.
For this reason, the authors of the gospels became excellent eyewitnesses and recognized the importance of their testimony very early.
Not true.  For although the risen Jesus is pictured as telling the disciples that THEY are to evangelize the Gentiles (Matthew 28:19-20, the "Great Commission"), according to Paul, after they had allegedly approved of his ministry, they allocated the entire gentile mission field to him, and intentionally limited their own preaching efforts solely to Jews, in direct defiance of the great commission:
 9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. (Gal. 2:9 NAU)
 No, the disciples didn't learn the truth "early on".  As late as the scene portrayed in Galatians 2:9 (Galatians 2:1 indicates 14 years had passed between Paul's conversion to Christianity, and his meeting with the Jerusalem apostles in Galatians 2:9), these Jerusalem disciples, according to v. 9, are concluding, 14 years after Paul's conversion, that they should limit their evangelism efforts to the Jews (i.e., "the circumcised").  That is, the disciples who allocate the entire Gentile mission field to Paul, are doing so 14 years after Jesus allegedly rose from the dead and gave the great commission.  14 years worth of disobedience to the great commission does not an amazingly transformed disciple make.

In Acts 11:1-3, the Jewish apostles castigate Peter for eating with a Gentile believer, and in 11:18, the Jewish church regards Gentile repentance unto salvation to be some new shocking unexpected theological development.  And Acts 10-11, of course, doesn't prevent these visions to Peter as reminders  of what he learned from the Gentile-loving Jesus from years back, it presents those visions as if this was the first time Peter found out that Gentiles could obtain salvation.  So anti-Gentile sentiment was part and parcel in the original Jewish church. 

Sorry, Wallace, but such disobedience to the risen Christ tells me the disciples were something less then "excellent" eyewitnesses.

And don't even get me started on the serious problem of how the New Testament is totally silent about the preaching efforts of most of the original 11 disciples and Matthias, when in fact, if they were "excellent eyewitnesses" as you say, we'd expect that Luke, the allegedly careful historian, author of Acts and somebody with a clear interest in telling the world about the divine approval of the nascent church's earliest preaching efforts, would have found it irresistible to tell just as many stories about Bartholomew, Thomas, and Matthias, and other "excellent eyewitnesses" that he apparently did about Peter, James and Paul.  The NT's silence about most of the original disciples strongly argues that nothing happened in their lives after the alleged resurrection of Jesus that the early church's most careful and reliable historian deemed worthy to be preserved for posterity, in turn suggesting many of the original 11 either lost faith entirely or started preaching what others felt was "heresy", and by sheer random historical accident and circumstance, it was Paul's version, not their version, that ended up becoming the official orthodoxy.
While Jesus walked here on earth, His followers studied and learned from His actions and words.
They were also far dumber in the story than reasonable probabilities would allow, Mark 6, supra.
They were often mesmerized, confused and challenged by what they saw and heard.
 They probably can't be blamed for some of this, but their obtuseness persisting even after seeing Jesus repeatedly does allegedly genuinely supernatural miracles,  suggests the gospel authors are lying about them, or else they were far from "excellent eyewitnesses".  If your pastor for the next three years went around walking on water, raising the dead, feeding thousands of homeless people from just 10 or 15 cans of beans, etc, etc, how difficult would you find it to have full faith and trust in whatever he claims about himself and his mission?
In spite of this, Jesus taught them and occasionally sent them out on their own. They memorized His teaching and relied on his wisdom when they weren’t with Him.
Perhaps that explains why Matthew often corrects Mark, a gospel you think is based on apostle Peter's preaching.  Where Mark says Jesus "could not" do a miracle, Matthew tones it down to "did not", thus getting rid of a phrase that most naturally implies a limitation on Jesus' power:

Mark 6
Matthew 13
 4 Jesus said to them,
"A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."

 5 And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.
 6 And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching.

 57 And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them,
"A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household."

 58 And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.



Inerrantist Commentators admit Matthew "toned down" Mark's language:
6:5 This statement about Jesus’ inability to do something is one of the most striking instances of Mark’s boldness and candor. It is omitted by Luke 4:16–30 and toned down by Matt 13:58. The statement should not trouble contemporary Christians. God and his Son could do anything, but they have chosen to limit themselves in accordance to human response.
Brooks, J. A. (2001, c1991). Vol. 23: Mark (electronic e.). Logos Library System; 
The New American Commentary (Page 100). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.
Sorry, Mr. Brooks, but if it is as easy as pie to reconcile Mark's Jesus of limited power, with the all-powerful Jesus of modern systematic Protestant theology, then why did Matthew "tone down" Mark's language?

Mark's language neither expressed nor implies anything about Jesus at variance with modern Protestant theology, remember?  So there's no rational motive for Matthew to "tone down" perfectly acceptable orthodox language, correct?

No thank you.  The obvious reason Matthew "tones down" Mark's "could not" to a "did not" is because it was Matthew's own judgment that Mark's language was inconsistent with a higher Christology that says Jesus is omnipotent.

And don't even get me started on how Matthew's changing of Mark's text necessarily implies that Matthew did not think Mark's gospel was 'inerrant', which, if true, flushes the inerrancy doctrine down the toilet.  Doesn't matter if you can trifle some possible way to harmonize Matthew's changing of Mark, with a theory that Matthew thought Mark's text was inerrant. Your changing of a text usually doesn't imply you think the text is inerrant, it usually implies you think the text contains errors needing correction.
We don’t know how much (if anything) these eyewitnesses wrote down during this time. Did the disciples take notes? Did they keep a journal? While Jesus was alive, the disciples likely felt no need to write down his words. The Word was witnessed in these incredible days, as men and women stood in awe of the Master, watching Him perform miracles and listening carefully to what He taught about God and eternal life.
And according to Mark 6, being shockingly obtuse in their failure to infer the truth about Jesus from his allegedly genuine magic tricks.   Sort of like you failing to get the message after two years of watching your pastor do authentically supernatural miracles such as raising the dead, multiplying food, healing illnesses, etc.  Sorry, but it's just unbelievable.
During the first years following Jesus’s ascension, the apostles still may not have written immediately about Jesus. Why not? A careful reading of the Scripture will reveal a common theme: Many of the early authors of the New Testament expected Jesus to return before there would ever be a need for a multi-generational eyewitness record.
And under your trusting assumptions, they would only have adhered to that view because it was Jesus himself who taught them he would return within their natural lifetimes.

Well, Wallace...did he?  Or will you open Pandora's box by speculating that  because Jesus couldn't teach anything incorrectly, surely some of these NT authors carried their misunderstandings into their canonical writings?  Gee, i didn't know you denied biblical inerrancy, but it's a step in the right direction at least!

Don't think Preterism can save your ass at this point, it can't.  Preterism avoids many problems of Jesus' promises to come back "quickly" (and the obvious fact that he didn't)  by pretending Jesus in such instances was speaking about a "spiritual" and "invisible" second coming.  But Preterism cannot reconcile it's invisible second coming of Christ with Acts 1:11, so:

a) the original disciples, by your own admission, believed Jesus would return so soon that they deemed authoring written gospels would be superfluous, and
b) you cannot use Preterism to explain away the problem of Jesus promising to return soon, and the obvious fact that he never did.

Since Preterism fails, your admission that the disciples expected Jesus to return within their natural lifetimes requires, upon the obvious fact that Jesus hasn't returned in 2,000 years in the way Acts 1:11 says he will, that either Jesus was wrong, or some of the original disciples of Jesus are still alive on earth.  Yeah, go chase that shit down on Google.  Then goto Netflix and rent "The Seventh Sign".
They worked urgently to tell the world about Jesus, believing He would return to judge the living and the dead within their lifetime.
That's correct. Now where do you suppose they would have gotten that false notion?  Under your trusting assumptions about the origin of Christianity, might it be that Jesus actually taught this false doctrine? If you insist some NT authors misunderstood the nature and timing of Jesus' second coming, you stop being an inerrantist, and you open the possibility that not even three years of Jesus drilling truth into their heads would prevent them from teaching error later.
In the days of the Apostles, the Word was heard, as the apostles preached to the world around them. But as the Apostles began to be martyred (and those who remained realized Jesus might not return in their lifetime), the need for a written account became clear.
Translation:  "As time wore on, the church began to reluctantly realize that Jesus was wrong in promising to return within their natural lifetimes."
James, the brother of John was killed in 44AD (Stephen was killed even earlier), and not long afterward, the gospels began to emerge. The eyewitness gospel authors wrote down what they had seen so the world would have a record.
Mark and Luke are gospel authors, and they are not eyewitnesses.  All the early church fathers who tell the reader what language Matthew wrote it, say it was Hebrew, they NEVER say Matthew wrote anything in Greek, yet today's canonical Matthew derives exclusively from GREEK manuscripts, strongly suggesting that an anonymous person or persons before the 4th century, not Matthew himself, are responsible for creation of the Greek form of Matthew's gospel, and god only knows to what extent apostle Matthew's words are preserved in this canonical Greek version or translation from Hebrew.  None of the 4 gospel authors sign their names to their testimony, and none of them claim double-authorship, despite their presumed knowledge that Jesus approved of the church adhering to the OT rule about important matters being determined on the basis of at least 2 identifiable eyewitnesses:
 15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. (Matt. 18:15-16 NAU)
 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. (1 Tim. 5:19 NAU)
 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. (Heb. 10:28 NAU)

Jesus didn't even think his uncorroborated testimony was worthy to be deemed true, he tried to show that his testimony comes to the Jews from at least two witnesses, himself and God the Father, a matter he felt was in fulfillment of the OT law requiring important matters be established on not less than two witnesses:
  31 "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.
 32 "There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true. (Jn. 5:31-32 NAU)

 17 "Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true.
 18 "I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me." (Jn. 8:17-18 NAU)
The OT laws on the necessity of two witnesses are:
  6 "On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. (Deut. 17:6 NAU)

 15 "A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed. (Deut. 19:15 NAU)
If the gospel authors were inspired by God, they'd likely have known their gospels would be used mostly by people they never met, and therefore, you cannot explain their failure to sign their names to them by saying their originally intended audiences already knew who they were.

That excuse falls flat anyway:  the churches apostle Paul founded obviously knew who he was, yet Paul still clearly identified himself in the epistles he wrote to them.   He even specifies that his own signature appears in every epistle:
 17 I, Paul, write this greeting with my own hand, and this is a distinguishing mark in every letter; this is the way I write. (2 Thess. 3:17 NAU)
 So the failure of the gospel authors to sign their names and ascribe to the two-witness-minimum rule is a serious problem running afoul of the "identify yourself" rule of thumb, the "at least two must testify" OT law which Jesus apparently thought was a valid test that his own testimony had to pass, and their choice to remain anonymous runs afoul of Paul's own practice of signing his name to his epistles.   We skeptics have good rational warrant to suspect that the gospel authors had personal reasons for refusing to directly link their writings with their identities.  This cannot be good for those who think God inspired honest eyewitnesses to truthfully report what actually happened in history.
Following the deaths of the apostles, the early believers and leaders received the apostolic eyewitness accounts and regarded them as sacred.
"most" of the early church also thought the Gospel to the Hebrews was "authentic Matthew", so says 4th century church father Jerome:
International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
 Jerome, toward the end of the 4th century, is our chief authority for the circulation and use of the "Gospel according to the Hebrews," although his later statements on the subject do not always agree with the earlier. He was proud of being "trilinguis," acquainted with Hebrew as well as with Latin and Greek. "There is a Gospel," he says, "which the Nazarenes and Ebionites use, which I lately translated from the Hebrew tongue into Greek and which is called by many the authentic Gospel of Matthew" (Commentary on Matthew 12:13)

Jerome, Against the Pelagians, 3.2
In the Gospel according to the Hebrews, which is written in the Chaldee and Syrian language, but in Hebrew characters, and is used by the Nazarenes to this day (I mean the Gospel according to the Apostles, or, as is generally maintained, the Gospel according to Matthew, a copy of which is in the library at Caesarea), we find, “Behold, the mother of our Lord and His brethren said to Him, John Baptist baptizes for the remission of sins; let us go and be baptized by him. But He said to them, what sin have I committed that I should go and be baptized by him? Unless, haply, the very words which I have said are only ignorance.”
Notice, Jerome is quoting this "authentic Matthew" or Gospel to the Hebrews
 Behold, the mother of our Lord and His brethren said to Him, John Baptist baptizes for the remission of sins; let us go and be baptized by him. But He said to them, what sin have I committed that I should go and be baptized by him? Unless, haply, the very words which I have said are only ignorance.”
but his quotation of it does not refer to anything we have in canonical Matthew or any of the other 3 canonical gospels.  Clearly the ancient church was confused about which gospels were truly apostolic.

The point is that J. Warner Wallace's confident assurances of how the early church "carefully preserved" and relied upon "apostolic eyewitness testimony" is not scholarly...unless he is willing to commit himself to the premise that the quote from Gospel of Hebrews, supra, accurately represents what the original of Matthew said (i.e., modern canonical Greek Matthew is a corruption of the original and is missing some of what Matthew originally wrote)?  Not likely.  
They knew the original eyewitnesses had vanished from the scene and they wanted to retain a faithful record of their testimony.
But Jesus never told them to write anything down, but only to preach, so it is a legitimate question whether the writing of the gospel constituted the prohibited "adding to the word of the Lord" (Proverbs 30:6, Deut. 4:2, 12:32, Revelation 22:18).   Have fun emailing conservative Christian scholars and apologists to help you brainstorm plausible reasons to think Jesus intended for his followers to write down any of his teachings.  yet if you claim this was done by the will of God and is a legitimate inference from anything taught in the NT, that is YOUR horrifically difficult burden to fulfill, the burden is not on the skeptic to show that writing down Jesus' teachings was against his will. YOU claim it was in harmony with his will, so prove it. 

And 4th century Eusebius preserves a quotation from 2nd century Clement of Alexandria, saying apostle Peter refused to encourage Mark's attempt to put Peter's preaching down in written form, which, if true, spells disaster for conservative apologists who think Peter 'approved' of Mark's literary effort:

Eusebius, Church History, book 6, ch. 14------
Again, in the same books, Clement gives the tradition of the earliest presbyters, as to the order of the Gospels, in the following manner: The Gospels containing the genealogies, he says, were written first. The Gospel according to Marks had this occasion. As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out. And having composed the Gospel he gave it to those who had requested it. When Peter learned of this, he neither directly forbade nor encouraged it.
If this quotation accurately represents Peter, this supports Wallace's own belief that the original apostles expected Jesus to come back so soon that they would have viewed the conversion of their oral preaching to written form, to be a waste of time.  We are, again, left with historical evidence that Jesus got something wrong, here, he got wrong the time he would return.

Wallace continues:
From the earliest of times, these Christians coveted the New Testament writings. In the days of the early Church Fathers, the Word was read, as the sacred Gospels and letters were carefully protected.
If they "carefully protected" the Gospels, then you cannot explain Mark 16's failure to mention Jesus' resurrection appearances, on a theory that the last part of Mark's gospel was accidentally lost, and therefore, the reason Mark has no resurrection appearances (most Christian scholars agree that Mark's resurrection appearance story or his "long ending", i.e., 16:9-20,  was only added by anonymous copyists), is because Mark did not know of any such stories, or he did not think any such stories were true.  According to Mark the gospel ends with women leaving the tomb having been told by some anonymous man that Jesus rose (16:8), it does not end with stories of a risen Jesus appearing to anybody (the "long ending").

Under your theory, the early church's "careful preservation" of the gospel texts makes it unlikely these would have underwent corruption.  In that case, Mark's silence about a resurrection narrative is not due to textual corruption, but his never having written any such story in the first place.

That is, the gospel deemed by most scholars to be the earliest...did not have anything to tell the reader about a risen Christ being seen by eyewitnesses.... 

Wallace continues:
The earliest believers accepted the gospels and letters of the New Testament as eyewitness accounts because the authors of these texts considered their own writing to be authoritative, eyewitness Scripture:

1 Peter 5:1
Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed…
2 Peter 1:16-17
For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
Peter's epistles do not claim he was an eyewitness to the risen Christ.
1 John 1:1-3
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life – and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us – what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us…
John's words here not claim he was an eyewitness to the risen Christ.
The apostles understood their experiences as eyewitnesses were unique, and they called for these eyewitness accounts to be read by all believers.
Benny Hinn also calls for his followers to have faith that he can do miracles by God's hand.  Big fucking deal.
Paul recognized both the Old Testament writings and the New Testament writings were sacred and God-given. He considered both to be Scripture:

1 Timothy 5:17-18
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, ‘Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,’ and ‘The worker deserves his wages.’

In this passage, Paul quoted both Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7 (“The worker deserves his wages”). He referred to both passages as Scripture. It’s clear the New Testament Gospels were already in place at the time of this writing, and it’s also clear that believers were reading these Gospels as Scripture.
 But not even some conservative "inerrantist" Christian scholars are willing to say Paul there was referring to Luke's gospel as scripture:
5:18 In this verse Paul supported his directive to reward worthy elders. His statements assume that financial remuneration was at least a part of the “honor” to which he referred in 5:17. First, he quoted Deut 25:4 to justify proper treatment for the pastor. Paul reasoned that if God could show concern for the laboring ox, the congregation needed to show proper concern for its pastor.131 The original intention of refusing to muzzle the ox was to allow the animal an occasional bite as it moved about the threshing floor. Paul saw expressed in this command a principle that is broader than a mere statement about care for animals. The second reference resembles the words of Christ in Luke 10:7.132 It is not likely that Paul was quoting the Gospel of Luke, a document whose date of writing is uncertain. Paul may have been referring to a collection of Jesus’ sayings, some of which appear in Luke’s Gospel. It is notable that Paul called both statements Scripture, and it becomes clear that such a collection of Jesus’ sayings “was placed on an equality with the Old Testament.”133
131 In 1 Cor 9:8–12, 14 Paul made this deduction from Deut 25:4. His inspired interpretation in both passages indicates that God’s purpose in the inclusion of the command in Scripture is broader in intent than merely urging care for animals.
132 Paul’s description of the Lord’s Supper in 1 Cor 11:24–25 is similar to that in Luke 22:19–20. This similarity gives evidence of a close link between Paul and Luke, a point this present passage further supports.
133 Guthrie, Pastoral Epistles, 105. Spicq supports the view that the reference of the formula “the Scripture says” is to both quotations and that Paul was designating another portion of the New Testament as Scripture (Saint Paul, 176–77). Both Kelly and Fee question this interpretation. Kelly (Pastoral Epistles, 126) says that the formula may refer only to the first of the two quotations or that the second quote may be to “some apocryphal writing which counted as Scripture in the Apostle’s eyes.” Fee (1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, 93) prefers to emphasize that the quotation formula applies only to the first of the references. He hesitates to say that Paul was calling the second reference “Scripture” because he sees the term used only in reference to the OT by Christians until the end of the second century. 
Lea, T. D., & Griffin, H. P. (2001, c1992). Vol. 34: 1, 2 Timothy, Titus (electronic ed.). The New American Commentary (Page 155). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.
Yet Wallace immediate concludes, contrary to actual scholars, that the similar wording between the epistle and Luke 10:7 pretty much guarantees that Paul was calling Luke's gospel "scripture".

 Wallace continues:
Peter also attested to Paul’s writings as Scripture when writing his own letters to the early Church:

2 Peter 3:14-16
Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
But most scholars deny Petrine authorship of 2nd Peter, and supporting that view is the unlikelihood that that apostle Peter, while writing under alleged divine inspiration, would admit some of apostle Paul's writings are "hard to understand" (v. 16).  It's more likely, under conservative assumptions, that whoever wrote 2nd Peter wasn't inspired by God to do so, as nobody inspired by God would find Paul's writings hard to understand, that is, assuming Paul's writings were also inspired by God, lest you trifle that being inspired by God doesn't give you infallible ability to understand all biblical matters...in which case a belief that the NT authors were divinely inspired doesn't necessarily tell you that they understood matters correctly.
In addition to this, it is clear the New Testament letters were being read and circulated among the churches as authoritative eyewitness Scripture and revelation from God:

Colossians 4:16
After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.

1 Thessalonians 5:27
I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.
The early church fathers routinely accused Marcion of adding to and subtracting from the content of the canonical gospels, yet Marcion attained a large following sufficient to scare Ireanaeus, Tertullian and others into spending considerable amounts of ink, paper and time warning their churches on where exactly it is that Marcion goes wrong. Apparently, during Christianity's first three of centuries, there really wasn't any reliable way for the average pew-warmer to check on whether the Christian loudmouth trying to draw attention to himself with this Jesus-stuff, was honestly or dishonestly presenting the gospel.  You either laughed and moved on, or you believed and joined his cult.   

So it really doesn't matter how popular the NT writings were in the early church...you may as well talk about how popular Marcion's form of the gospel was with his large crowd of followers, and his tendency to persuade orthodox Christians to come over to his particular teaching.  Proves nothing except perhaps that large crowds of people can be shockingly gullible and concerned more with joining a group than in whether the group's claims are true, not a happy day for apologists who tout the "explosion" of Christianity in its first few centuries as some argument that it must be true.
The eyewitness authors of the New Testament gospels and letters understood the power of their testimony.
Paul was an author of about 13 "letters" in the NT.  Nothing in the three accounts in Acts about Paul's experience of Christ on the road to Damascus, justify the inference that he was an "eyewitness" of a risen Jesus.  His traveling companions couldn't see the person Paul was speaking too (9:7), and Paul himself characterizes the experience as a "heavenly vision" or heaven-based vision, using the Greek word optasia, the same word he uses in 2nd Cor. 12:1 to characterize an absurdly esoteric experience that left him, 14 years after the fact, unable to tell whether he flew to heaven bodily or only spiritually (12:2-4).

Wallace, if you were charged with murder and the prosecution's only eyewitness admitted that it was during a blinding flash of heavenly light that he saw you pull the trigger, despite the fact that his traveling companions standing near him testified that at the time they could not see you, would you insist that the judge provide the jury an instructing allow them to infer a supernatural basis to suppose the eyewitness is telling the truth?

Or would you scream your head off that blinding flashes of heavenly light call for the witness to be excused and the case to be dismissed for lack of evidence?

Sometimes, you don't discover how much it sucks to be an apologist, until you dialogue with an extremely smart skeptic...like me.  Call it the sin of pride.
They witnessed the Word in the days when a written record was unnecessary, spoke the Word when they thought Jesus would return imminently,
Again, Wallace, why are you so certain the apostles were "wrong" to expect Jesus to return in their natural lifetimes?  Doesn't your trusting attitude toward the historical reliability of the gospels tell you it is more probable that the apostles held to this view because Jesus taught it?

Sure, to say Jesus taught falsely about how soon he would come back, destroys the purpose for which you currently live, but that shouldn't be a problem for you, as you wish to be known to the world as a cold-case detective whose subjective biases rarely influence his analysis of historical probabilities.

Well then, do you have a subjective bias that prevents you from entertaining the notion that Jesus made false promises to the apostles?  yes, you do.  You are a worshiper of Jesus.  You are no more likely to admit significant fault with Jesus than Mormons are likely to find significant fault with their first prophet Joseph Smith.
and wrote the Word when they realized their eyewitness record would become Scripture for those who followed them.
And as we learn from Eusebius/Clement of Alexandria, supra, some of them refused to endorse the conversion of their preaching into written form, such as was the case with Peter's attitude toward Mark's literary effort, a bit of patristic testimony that passes the criteria of embarrassment and is therefore a bit more reliable than other patristic testimony saying Peter approved of this literary effort. 

I await the day when J. Warner Wallace reconciles his trust in Mark's accuracy, with Peter's refusal to support Mark's work. Doesn't matter if it is possible that Peter had reasons other than suspicion Mark was telling lies, to refuse to support that effort...it is more probable, absent evidence to the contrary, that an apostle refuses to endorse the conversion of his oral preaching into written form, because he finds something wrong with the end product or the person doing the converting.

Thursday, May 17, 2018

Holding's possible farce; an answer to "The Impossible Faith"



For reasons unknown, but likely due to the sin of pride, James Patrick Holding continues to hawk his "Impossible Faith" apologetic as if it was some sort of "smack-down" to atheists and anybody else who say Christianity is false.

I attacked Holding's impossible faith argument in formal debate with him years ago at theologyweb.
I am currently working on a point-by-point rebuttal to Holding's web-based Impossible faith article.  Check back spoon!

First, Holding has configured his website to be inaccessible to the ISP I use to surf the internet.  He knowingly did this soon after I sued him for libel.  If you are a follower of Holding, let me know when you found any legitimately credentialed Christian scholar taking similarly desperate steps to prevent a critic from accessing material.  Go ahead, email Habermas, Licona, Craig, etc, ask them whether they have acted to prevent certain people from accessing their web-based materials.

 The persons who uploaded an interview of Holding discussing his impossible faith, likewise disabled comments to that video:



That video was hosted by a Theology, Philosophy and Science, and by a Dr. Craig Johnson, both of whom have disabled comments to the video.  Even in Christianity, effective marketing is always more important than trusting in the Holy Spirit.

Holding's clamming up like this sounds more like genuine fright than it does any other bullshit excuse he gives for it.  Preventing a critic from accessing one's controversial materials and arguments runs afoul of the basic ethics of Christian scholarship.  But maybe this is just Holding's interpretation of Titus 3:9-11, who knows.

Second, soon after I asserted on this blog that I still access Holding's website through the Google cache, suddenly, the google cache no longer works.  I get paid to be suspicious when I don't have anything to be suspicious about. (Update, June 5, 2018---I verified with the ISP that they prevented all users from accessing google cache since it was being accessed to get around their filters, so I don't accuse Holding of doing something to prevent access through said cache...but that hardly erases the fact that he did take positive steps to prevent me from accessing his website).

Third, that Holding was wasting his time blocking my access to his website,  is seen from the fact that I easily access his website by simply connecting to the internet using any one from among 10 different wireless ISP's within range of my computer.  I hardly exclusively depend on my local library for internet access.  Apparently Holding is right: he does indeed get irrational when he perceives an inevitable smackdown headed his way.  

Fourth, being the fake Christian that he is, Holding accidentally allowed more of his true colors show by hiding his "impossible faith" arguments behind a paywall.  Somewhere along the way, he decided that selling Jesus for profit was more desirable than allowing free access to what he must consider "the gospel".  Despite Holding's claim to be on the cutting edge of apologetics research for the last 20 years, he shows no more spiritual maturity than a televangelist who first tells you how to properly write your check to him, before he starts "healing" anybody.  Money talks, even in Christianity.

Now then, onto more pressing matters...Holding argues that the claims of Jesus and Paul ran counter to what the people in their culture expected of true religion, therefore, if Christianity flourished enough in that context to become world-wide religion, it's survival was against incredible odds, and thus can only be explained on the basis that Jesus' miracles were genuinely supernatural and the first converts knew it.

There are 4 basic fuck-ups in Holding's argument:

1)  Jesus' mother and brothers thought him to be insane and put forth effort to prohibit his public preaching, despite their living in a collectivist society where such activity would bring about a shocking level of shame on themselves if the accusation of insanity was false. Mark 3:21-31.  Let's just say they likely had excellent probable cause to believe Jesus was nothing but a dramatic outspoken extroverted con man, long on surface appearance and short on actual substance.  We find the same in John 7:5, saying even Jesus' brothers were not believing in him. No source of dishonor in that culture was more profoundly shameful than when accusations of insanity come from your own immediate family,  since common sense dictated that the people most likely to know the truth about you, would be your own immediate family.  The point is that if Jesus' miracles were so positively undeniable as Holding alleges, the last people we'd expect to find writing off the miracle-worker as a fraud, would be his own mother and brothers.  Unless Holding suddenly discovers that Mark 3:21 and John 7:5 are mere textual corruptions,  he will have to concede their originality, and their inerrancy, and suffer accordingly from this bit of biblical bad news.

2) There is nearly universal consensus among conservative Christian scholars that James, the Lord's brother, did not believe in Jesus' claims before Jesus died. In other words, during the three or so years that Jesus went around raising people from the dead, walking on water, healing people of diseases, etc., somehow, his own brother saw no reason to conclude Jesus was the Son of God:

Inerrantist G.L. Borchert finds that Jesus’ brothers remained ‘unbelievers’ throughout Jesus earthly ministry:

It is apparent from the text that Jesus’ brothers were not yet to be numbered among the believers. Several writers have seen a confirmation in the similar lack of belief on the part of the brothers in the Markan account at 3:21, 31–35.7 The brothers’ failure to believe in him (John 7:5) was accompanied by a challenge to make evident his messiahship by some public display (7:3–4). In John the demand for signs or public display is an evidence that such persons have an inadequate relation to Jesus, and as a result they are to be reckoned among those who stand condemned (3:18). There is little middle ground in this Gospel for fence-sitters. As far as any believing on the brothers’ part is concerned, it is clear that such would have to await the post-resurrection period when, for example, James, the brother of the Lord, became a leader in the Jerusalem church (cf. Gal 1:19 particularly and also Acts 12:17; 15:13; 21:8).  New American Commentary, Borchert, G. L. (2001, c1996). Vol. 25A: John 1-11 p. 280[3]


From the cd-rom game in Gary Habermas, Mike Licona, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, paperback 352 pages, Kregal Publishers, Grand Rapids, MI. © 2004 (with cd-rom), quiz 1, under the category “Skeptics”, one of the questions was “True or False: Jesus had a brother named James who did not believe in Him before the resurrection”.  The correct answer was “yes”. So Habermas and Licona intend for Christians who are new to apologetics, to believe that Jesus' own brother James somehow didn't find any of Jesus' miracles to be particularly persuasive before Jesus was crucified.

Apologist Norman Geisler agrees:

Finally in addition to appearing to his unbelieving disciples, Jesus also appeared to some who were not his disciples at all. He appeared to his brother James (1 Cor. 15:7), who, with his other brothers, was not a believer before the Resurrection (John 7:5).  When Critics Ask, p. 461[1]

Apologist Josh McDowell is surprisingly specific that James didn't merely maintain unbelief, but "despised" all that Jesus stood for:

Look at the changed life of James, the brother of Jesus.  Before the resurrection he despised all that his brother stood for.  He thought Christ’s claims were blatant pretention [sic] and served only to ruin the family name.]ETDAV, p. 227, par. 4D.
The question that gives apologists nightmares is:  Assuming Jesus’ miracles were genuinely supernatural, what theory best explains his own family rejecting his claims throughout the duration of the earthly ministry?   If your brother began claiming himself to be an angel of the Lord sent to strengthen Christians, and went around gaining fame in your city as somebody who performs real healings, resurrections and other miracles, wouldn't you first have to confirm he was a con artist with sorely deluded followers before you could maintain unbelief toward his claims?  How likely is it that by some quirk, you would just never be in the proper circumstance to watch his miracles or hear testimony of eyewitnesses who claimed healing from him?

Will somebody seriously set forth the trifle that maybe Jesus’ brothers were, for the full 3 years of Jesus’ earthly ministry, always in the wrong place at the wrong time, and never got lucky enough to actually be present when Jesus did any of his miracles?  Perhaps they stayed shut up in their houses so much that they never got around to having a conversation with any of Jesus 12 disciples (Luke 6:13 ff) and never managed to hear anything significant from any of his 70 disciples (Luke 10:1), nor from the entire cities crowded with his supporters who stampeded each other just to get to him (Mark 1:45)?

Maybe his brothers were so unlucky that they never managed to hear testimony from any of the “many” whom Jesus healed of various diseases (Matthew 4:24, etc)?

  Do a search in your NT for "crowds".  There are numerous references to Jesus being found entirely convincing by "large crowds"  (I develop the point in my blog article in rebuttal to Tim Chaffey's "Defense of Easter" book.

Or maybe Jesus’ brothers saw plenty of Jesus’ miracles, but were more obstinately stupid than today’s atheists, and refused to believe their own eyes because they were so intent on assisting the devil in opposing the gospel? 

Can any excuse be too stupid if it favors bible inerrancy?  Not when the bullshit conspiracy scenario comes from the bible:
 19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. (1 Jn. 5:19 NAU)
Yup, if yer gonna be a Christian, you have to believe in invisible people who can cause you much trouble without being detected, thus not much different from the toddler who still believes there is monster under her bed and it just turns invisible whenever anybody looks.
  8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. (1 Pet. 5:8 NAU)
Anyway...

3) the NT records many instances of apostasy that indicate that the type of faith many of Jesus' followers had, was superficial; not what we'd expect if they had concluded, during conversion to the faith, that the miracles of Jesus were genuinely supernatural.  The bible's devil-verse, John 6:66, provides much truth by declaring that, all because of a statement about eating his flesh, which most people would naturally discern to be figurative, "many" of Jesus' disciples nevertheless stopped following him:  
  57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"
 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?
 62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
 66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"
 (Jn. 6:57-67 NAU)
 If they converted on the basis that Jesus' miracles were undeniably supernatural, how could their faith be disturbed by what was obviously a figurative statement from Jesus, to the point that they actually fall away?  And isn't it rather easy to imagine that those disciples would have asked "when you say we must eat your flesh, are you speaking literally or figuratively?", and Jesus' answer "figuratively" would have preempted the apostasy?

If John 6:66 is historically accurate, it is highly unlikely these disciples had converted to the faith on the basis of Jesus' miracles...in which case it seems more plausible to conclude that the reason they could so easily fall away over such a stupid failure to recognize figurative language, is because they converted to the faith for reasons other than Jesus' miracles.  That makes it sound like not even Jesus' disciples thought his miracles quite as genuinely supernatural as Holding thinks.  This is the part where Holding suddenly discovers that eyewitness testimony doesn't mean shit and never did.  It sounds as if Jesus' popularity had more in common with dramatic extroverted televangelists and their ability to whip up religious zealots into a frenzy of stupidity, and less to do with performing actual miracles.

(by the way, one particularly acute argument against Jesus' miracles is the fact that he could have prevented disease and thus any need to do miracles by simply instructing the people in the realities of germs and disinfecting, truths we recognize today...but he never did.  Wanna watch an apologist squirm with insane gyrations?  Ask him or her how Jesus can be so concerned to go around "healing", but never concerned to give people truth about sanitation? What was Jesus saying in his mind?  "I love you so much I'll heal you of all your sicknesses and diseases....but you 'aren't ready' to learn basic sanitation." (!?)  You will find yourself suddenly in the company of paralyzed idiots who can do nothing more than utter "God's ways are mysterious".  You'll excuse me if I explain this flaw in Jesus' approach on the basis of my presupposition that Jesus didn't know any more about germs than dogs do.  FUCK YOU.)

 4)  Apostle Paul infamously expresses not the slightest interest in the things Jesus did before being crucified.  We have no reason to think Paul's Gentile churches would have more interest in that aspect of Jesus, than their founder Paul did.    So to whatever degree Paul's converts contribute to the flourishing of 1st century Christanity, it was that many people who found reasons other than "miracles" to join the cause.  Maybe you should ask yourself "if the reality of the miracles Jesus performed before he died, was such a powerful argument, why doesn't Paul use that argument?"

 5)  The truth is that Christianity was wiped out by the 5th century and ceased to exist thereafter.  Holding will jump out of his skin and yell "what the fuck!" (when he is sure nobody else is listening; hypocrites have to be aware of their surroundings with great alarm), but it's true:  the gospel Jesus preached contradicts the gospel Paul preached.  Generalizations about how "Christianity survived and flourished" are bullshit, a new form of Christianity that arbitrarily relaxed some rules Jesus had insisted on, to make the religion more palatable to Gentiles, is what "survived".   

 In light of these problems, it is highly unlikely that the 1st generation of Christians found Jesus' miracles to be undeniably genuine.  It is more likely that these early conversions had no more significance than the "conversions" achieved by Billy Graham or other evangelist who manages to attract and convince large crowds despite the bullshit nature of the message.  Therefore, any explanation for Christianity's flourishing, other than "the miracles were real!", must be more probable than Holding's hypothesis.

This page will be regularly updated with quotes from Christian scholars who credit Christianity's survival to causes other than the miraculous.

For now, one such scholar would be Luke:
 28 One of them named Agabus stood up and began to indicate by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world. And this took place in the reign of Claudius. (Acts 11:28 NAU)
Inerrantist scholars believe this occured around 44 a.d.:


In Antioch Agabus predicted that there would be a worldwide famine.131 Luke added the “aside” that this famine did indeed occur during the time of Claudius, who was Roman emperor from A.D. 41–54.132
The reign of Claudius was in fact marked by a long series of crop failures in various parts of the empire—in Judea, in Rome, in Egypt, and in Greece. The Judean famine seems to have taken place during the procuratorship of Tiberius Alexander (A.D. 46–48), and Egyptian documents reveal a major famine there in A.D. 45–46 due to flooding. The most likely time for the Judean famine would thus seem to have been around A.D. 46. In any event, the Antioch church decided to gather a collection to relieve their fellow Christians in Judea, each setting something aside according to his or her ability.135 Eventually, when the famine struck, the collection was delivered to the elders in Jerusalem by Paul and Barnabas. Actually, v. 30 does not mention Jerusalem, but 12:25 does in speaking of Paul and Barnabas’s return from this visit.
Polhill, J. B. (2001, c1992). Vol. 26: Acts (electronic ed.). Logos Library System;
The New American Commentary (Page 274).
Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

My theory is that this famine was the prime motive for most unbelievers in Judea choosing to join a religious group such as the Christians, who apparently advocated the communal lifestyle anyway (Acts 4:34).  During a famine, unless you are rich, the people who stock the market with food begin to clam up, charge high prices, and reserve the increasingly scarce food commodities for themselves and their friends more and more.  You are either rich, or lucky, or you join some religious group, or you die of starvation.

Indeed, apostle Paul admits that the leaders of the Jerusalem church told him to "remember the poor" which most commentators take to mean he should give the Jerusalem church a gift of money:
 9 and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
 10 They only asked us to remember the poor-- the very thing I also was eager to do. (Gal. 2:9-10 NAU)
Inerrantist schholar T. George, writing for the inerrancy-driven New American Commentary:

Paul and Barnabas were asked to remember “the poor,” a shorthand expression for “the poor among the saints in Jerusalem” (Rom 15:26). From its earliest days the Jerusalem church faced a condition of grinding poverty, as can be seen from the dispute over widows receiving sufficient food and the practice of sharing all things in common to care for the needy (Acts 4:32–35; 6:1–4). A land of soil deprivation and poor irrigation, Judea was also hard hit in this period of history by famine, war, and overpopulation. To all this must be added the ravishing of the church in the persecutions directed by Paul and other leaders of the Jewish religious community. So chronic was the economic deprivation of the Judean Christians that they became known collectively as “the Poor.”
    Paul indicated that the request to remember the poor was not received as an onerous burden but rather as an activity he had already begun and was eager to carry forward. We know from his later writings that Paul devoted much time and energy to the collection of a special offering for the Jerusalem Christians (Rom 15:25–33; 1 Cor 16:1–4; 2 Cor 8:9). The churches of Galatia were among the Pauline congregations who contributed to this relief effort. For Paul this effort was an important witness for Christian unity, a tangible way for Gentile Christians to express materially their appreciation for the great blessing in which they had shared spiritually with their brothers and sisters in Jerusalem. Paul himself carried this love gift to Jerusalem on his last visit to that city, during the course of which he was arrested and began the long journey to Rome that ended with his execution.
George, T. (2001, c1994). Vol. 30: Galatians (electronic ed.). Logos Library System;
The New American Commentary (Page 165).
Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.
If inerrantists are correct that in Paul's day the Jerusalem church was constantly poor and in need of charity, it really isn't that much of a stretch to envision unbelievers, half-starved, arriving at the church, confessing their sins and doing whatever was required in order to reap the benefits of the group, in this case, food. (by the way, why was the Jerusalem church poor?  Didn't Jesus assure his followers that their need would be supplied by God as long as they put the kingdom first in their lives?
 30 "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!
 31 "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'
 32 "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
 33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. (Matt. 6:30-33 NAU)
Or did Jesus presume that the people listening to him were experts in systematic theology, and thus aware that God's sovereign will always dictated whether or not they would live or die?

The point is if James Patrick Holding thinks the 1st century unbelievers converted to the church because there was just no denying that the miracles of Jesus and his resurrection, its probably because he never noticed, until an atheist pointed it out to him, that severe hunger has a tendency to motivate dying people to suddenly convert to the views of whatever religious group that happens along and can give them food.

Suppose you think Mormonism is a false form of Christianity.  Suppose you were left stranded in the desert and were dying of thirst.  The only people you've seen in 3 days are Mormon missionaries driving across the desert carrying food and water. You flag them down and they stop...but they are assholes; they are willing to help, but only if you agree that Mormonism is true.  How great would be the temptation to feign agreement with whatever they say just so you can save your life?

So unless Holding magically locates some scholar who disagrees with inerrantist scholars, and says the famine referenced in Acts 11 was a small thing, despite the biblical evidence that it savaged the nascent church, he will have to agree that plenty of people who joined the church in the early period, would likely have done so purely to gain food, and without giving two shits whether or not this religion's miracle claims were true.

And when we remember that Jesus' "miracles" were not even enough to convince his own family, and not enough to retain "many" of his own disciples, it's a pretty powerful case that Christianity's flourishing in the 1st century likely occurred for purely naturalistic reasons.

And lord knows, we have plenty of evidence, historically and contemporary, of how easily religious-minded people can be swayed to believe false things.  Methinks a purely naturalistic explanation for Christianity's rise to fame is far more likely to be the correct one, than Holding's hypothesis "the miracles must have been real!"

FUCK YOU, updated regularly
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