I answer Steve and his commenters here point by point:
First, he says nothing at all about the infamous quotations from the Babylonian Talmud where the earlier Rabbis/Sages held that girls are suitable for sexual relations at age 3 years and one day.
Second, he says nothing about the Romans 13 argument which would have biblically justified a man living in 19 century Delaware to have sex with a 7 year old girl, because under Calvinism, God really is the creator of all secular law, not just the laws that cohere with the bible.
Third, he says nothing about the argument that because the bible is not explicit on the subject, this forbids Christians from disfellowshipping the man who disagrees with them on this subject.
I deny the legitimacy of this move. My argument is that the bible god approves of sex within adult child marriages, not that god approves of adults having sex with kids outside of marriage. Hays' characterization is faulty here because apart from marriage, adults having sex with kids would be covered under either the fornication or adultery prohibitions. It's the adult-child sex taking place within marriage, that is impervious to biblical rebuttal. But Hays pretends to be answering Islamic arguments concerning charges of pedophilia and the bible, so it's probably not his fault that he is beating up a rather weak form of the argument. Let's see him refute my particular argument.Saturday, July 08, 2017Islam, Christianity, and pedophiliaQuestion from a commenter:I wonder, though, if we Christians aren't revealing a weak spot when it comes to objections to pedophilia. When pressed by our opponents, I don't think that we'd be able to provide any prooftexts condemning the practice - or am I wrong? Worse, I could see opponents seizing on the notion of Boaz seeming to be an elder while Ruth appeared to be a young girl. Granted, that's a bit flimsy but I'm not sure what the proper response might be. So I guess I'm asking how you might mount a defence against the claim that the Bible has nothing to say about pedophilia.Interesting question. Requires a many-layered response:1. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the Bible is silent on the moral status of pedophilia.
Not according to the historians who lay out the criteria for knowing when an argument from silence is likely to be successful. Not all arguments from silence are automatically fallacious.There's an essential difference between a religious text that condones pedophilia and silence.
You cannot afford to disagree with Paul, who said his solitary basis for being able to know a human act was sin, was the Mosaic Law:The Bible's not an encyclopedia. It doesn't purport to address every ethnical issue.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.It doesn't matter if you are correct to say your God disapproves of marital pedophilia, the challenge is whether you can demonstrate that contention from the bible. You can't.
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. (Rom. 7:6-8 NAU)
Steve continues:
Several problems:Some activities may not be condemned because they are obviously wrong. It isn't necessary to explicitly condemn them. That's understood. Take the cliche example of torturing little kids for fun.
a) Paul in Romans 7:7 does not allow for even himself to know, apart from Mosaic law, that some human act is sin;
b) You are a Calvinist who believes God secretly wills all human sin, so by your own admission, God is no less approving of pedophiles who torture kids in basements for fun, than he approves of fathers who make their kids attend a Calvinist turch, which logically means God finds the human acts in his secret will no less holy than the human acts in his revealed will;
c) no thank you, I'll stick to biblical examples, since they trip you up more easily. If "obviously wrong" might explain why God is silent about torturing kids for fun, then what are you saying about God's prohibition against bestiality?
23 'Also you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion. (Lev. 18:23 NAU)Indeed, God apparently thought one single prohibition wasn't sufficient:
Exo 22:19 "Whoever lies with an animal shall surely be put to death.Under your "obviously wrong" type logic, then the only reason God revealed multiple specific prohibitions against bestiality for Israel is because God didn't think Israel's common sense was sufficient to dissuade them from this type of activity.
Lev 20:12 If there is a man who lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death; they have committed incest, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
Lev 20:15 If there is a man who lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death; you shall also kill the animal.
Lev 20:16 If there is a woman who approaches any animal to mate with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
Deu 27:21 Cursed is he who lies with any animal. And all the people shall say, Amen.
That won't help you when you start trying to argue that the obvious immorality of pedophilia would have been appreciated by Israel.
But if sex with animals is an obvious wrong, then why should God feel Israel needed more specific guidance on it than they needed on the proper minimum age of marriage?
Gee, could it actually be that these stupid questions come up because the bible is not inspired by a consistent creator, but is inspired by nothing but various people spouting various theological opinions?
The argument can be extended: how 'obviously wrong' is it to burn your kids to death? And yet we see God constantly prohibiting the Israelites from imitating this pagan practice:
10 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,Same question: if God thought the Israelites would recognize the "obvious" immorality of burning their kids to death, why did he specifically prohibit it?
11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. (Deut. 18:10-11 NAU)
You will say the prohibitions against acts condemned by common sense were needed because the pagan nations surrounding Israel did them and Israel might imitate them and often did.
So I really have to wonder why you would defend the high moral scruples of a people who could be persuaded by other cultures/nations, that burning their kids to death, was acceptable?
How many Christians live in big cities full of homosexuality and witchcraft.
How many of those Christians give in to practicing homosexuality and witchcraft?
So if your answer is that God needed to guide Israel because of the corruption of the pagans, you are making the Israelites out to be unacceptably gullible, which cannot be good for your other argument that surely they were wise enough to intuitively "know" when an act was sinful.
Could it really be, after all, that Paul was correct, and that your only hope for identifying human acts God thinks are sinful, is Mosaic law?
I think there's a place for natural law considerations in Christian ethics. We don't require biblical warrant for all our ethical determinations.
But you claim that God disapproves of sex within adult-child marriages. You aren't going to prove that disapproval comes from God, if all you are using are natural law arguments. And natural law arguments can backfire. It's natural for a parent to not wish to burn their child to death, so was God contradicting natural common sense in Leviticus 21:9?
A view fatally mitigated by the NT's consistent reference to Lot as a consistently righteous man. Lot is called righteous in 2nd Peter 2:7-8 despite how clearly Genesis 19 asserts that Lot recommended to a sexually violent mob that they rape his two virgin daughters. In other words, if this NT statement is true, then the author did not believe Lot’s attempt to have his daughters raped, constituted anything immoral, especially given that the story says Lot was trying to achieve a good purpose (preventing angels from being raped).2. In Scripture, couples marry with a view to having kids. That assumes the bride and bridegroom are sexually mature.
7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled menIn other words, while it may have been the ANE norm for virgin girls to lose virginity only in marriage, it also appears that where larger issues were involved, exceptions to normative sexual ethics were allowed.
8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, (2 Pet. 2:7-9 NAU)
Lot, in particular, is considered righteous for offering his virgin daughters in order to save wayfarers.
Freedman, D. N. (1996, c1992). The Anchor Bible Dictionary. New York: Doubleday.
Couple marrying in scripture with a view toward having kids may also assumes the couple is not allowed to engage in the specific sex act that would make the girl pregnant until she is older. The Song of Songs would suggest at that point that an adult-child couple can engage in other similar acts that would not carry that danger.
In Scripture, couples also sometimes begin marital rites upon no other basis than that the man lusted after the woman's beauty, Deut. 21:10-14, a passage that neither expresses nor implies the purpose of the marriage would involve having children:
10 "When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive,
11 and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself,
12 then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails.
13 "She shall also remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.
14 "It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not mistreat her, because you have humbled her. (Deut. 21:10-14 NAU)
Steve continues:
3. Ruth was a widow. Moreover, she'd been married for ten years before her husband died (Ruth 1:4-5; 4:11). Presumably, she was in her twenties when she married Boaz.4. Are there passages in Scripture that have implications for age of eligibility in reference to marriage?i) Take the much maligned passage about war brides (Deut 20:10-14). The brides are widows. So these are not prepubescent girls. It's unlikely that they are even adolescent girls. Rather, the context suggests adult women. They are chosen for their overt womanly sex appeal.
You are dreaming:
a) It's Deut 21, not 20, you specified "much maligned passage about war brides, and Deut. 21:10-14 is far more explicit in its discussion of war brides than Deut. 20 is.
b) you cite no contextual or grammatical evidence to show these female war captives were widows,
c) that Moses allow his men to enslave prepubescent and adolescent girls is clearly seen in Numbers 31:18, and
d) you don't know what ancient Israelite men would have found attractive in other females, in Deut. 21:11, what would constitute "beauty" is not defined and left to the eye of the beholder;
e) if the GNT is correct in translating v. 14 as "you forced her to have sex with you" is a proper dynamic translation, the probability increases slightly that the text is assuming younger girls, i.e., those more likely to resist first intercourse;
f) if the GNT is correct in its rape-translation, then these Israelites apparently didn't have any scruples against a single act of rape as the result of an attempted marriage rite, and this increase in their barbarity gives you all the less justification to automatically assume the god of the bible surely agrees with modern American Christian scruples on sex.
here you assume the inerrancy of the bible, when the more scholarly objective approach would appraise the morals of the ANE Hebrews solely on terms of ANE practice and the OT. And regardless, Paul's meaning is ambiguous,ii) In 1 Cor 7:36, the virgins are, at the very least, sexually mature, and the word (hyperakmos) may well mean the "bloom of youth". That suggests females in the upper teens or early twenties.
48 36-38. The Apostle applies the preceding teaching to a particular case. There has been a lively discussion among exegetes concerning the precise relation of the man (tis) to his “virgin” in these verses.....and he appears to be talking about a man with a virgin daughter who is past her sexual prime and wants to marry another man, since he is dealing with a specific problem that apparently had no common sense answers:
36. behaveth … uncomely—is not treating his daughter well in leaving her unmarried beyond the flower of her ageSo if spiritually alive Christians cannot even agree on what Paul's meaning is, you can hardly seriously expect your unqualified interpretation of Paul's words to look the least bit persuasive to spiritually dead Muslims and atheists.
5. It's common to speculate that Mary was an adolescent bride who was widowed by the time Jesus began his public ministry because she married a much older man. But even if we grant some of the assumptions, it was probably rare for people to die of old age in the ancient world. Mortality was high, and there are many common ways to die young, viz. illness, accident, infection.
But Joseph was likely rich given that he apparently had more children with Mary, not a wise decision if he was poor. Joseph was a carpenter, and he could easily have earned enough of a living to avoid the harsh realities that caused shortened life spans, such as famine, or eating diseased food, forced to take dangerous labor-intensive jobs, etc.
6. Regarding the morality of older men who marry younger women, that depends.i) On the one hand are coercive or exploitative relationships.
Older men (and women!) in positions of power who abuse their authority by taking advantage of subordinates.
I don't see why you think that matters. Even denying the pedophilia interpretation of Numbers 31:18, you still think these men expected these little girls to start slaving away in their houses soon after hearing the dying shrieks of their parents and siblings. Some would argue that the way these men obtained the service of these little girls was horribly exploitative, and worse than a single act of sexual molestation. Touching a little girl improperly doesn't kill off her parents.
But you are ignoring the precise question at issue: What age did the Hebrews require a girl to reach, at a minimum, before they would allow her to be married to an adult man? You simply don't have any biblical basis to select any age except the age of 12 that can be gathered from what is already known about ANE peoples outside the bible. But that does not represent an absolute mandate, anymore than a state's law requiring a person to be 18 to marry is absolute, since we know some states will allow lower age with parental consent. You can only show what was "normative", you cannot do what you need to do, and that is to show that sex within adult-child marriages was consider sinful.ii) On the other hand, there are desperate or ambitious women who take the initiative. They court or seduce older men who can advance their career, provide financial security, or lavish lifestyle. That's calculated. Some women are attracted to alpha males or powerful men. I'm not making a value judgment, just a sociological observation. Between consenting adults, I don't think age disparity is coercive or exploitative.Posted by steve at 9:29 AM
Even assuming Ezekiel 16 is the answer to your dreams (it's not, God is rather stupid and brutish to assume that formation of breasts and pubic hair indicates the girl is "ready" for love), Gleason Archer and others have accepted that some kings in the Monarchy were fathering kids at 11 years old. As I said in another post, revered commentators believe that the modern practice of girls marrying before puberty was true also in the OT days:ANNOYED PINOY7/08/2017 3:00 PMI think there's a place for natural law considerations in Christian ethics. We don't require biblical warrant for all our ethical determinations.That's a powerful statement by Steve. Christian ethics based on the Bible takes into consideration natural law. Even if Islam could theoretically do the same thing, Islam nevertheless teaches that it's okay for men to have sex with prepubescent girls. As I said in the comments of another blog:To add to what Steve said, if one reads Ezek. 16:1-8 (and following) God likens his relationship with His people as Him having found her like a newly born abandoned child. He waited until she was sexually mature to "marry" her in covenant. I think that suggests the same thing Steve is saying. I think we can inductively infer from this what the Jews believed during that time and what God Himself approves of regarding when it's appropriate for a female to get married.
Second, many conservative Christian scholars still revere the Keil and Delitzsch Commentary, because what it has to say about the bible remains very scholarly despite its having been written in the 1800’s. After acknowledging King Ahaz fathered a child at 10-11 years old, they recognize the question this will pop into the mind of the reader, and they go on to cite documentary evidence that prepubescent marriage was normative for middle-eastern families, and this evidence forces Holding, without a rebuttal otherwise, to admit ancient Hebrews were willing to allow marriage at even younger ages than 12:
2 Kings 16:1–4. On the time mentioned, “in the seventeenth year of Pekah Ahaz became king” see at 2 Kings 15:32. The datum “twenty years old” is a striking one, even if we compare with it 2 Kings 18:2. As Ahaz reigned only sixteen years, and at his death his son Hezekiah became king at the age of twenty-five years (2 Kings 18:2), Ahaz must have begotten him in the eleventh year of his age. It is true that in southern lands this is neither impossible nor unknown,33 but in the case of the kings of Judah it would be without analogy. The reading found in the LXX, Syr., and Arab. at 2 Chron. 28:1, and also in certain codd., viz., five and twenty instead of twenty, may therefore be a preferable one. According to this, Hezekiah, like Ahaz, was born in his father’s sixteenth year.
------33 In the East they marry girls of nine or ten years of age to boys of twelve or thirteen (Volney, Reise, ii. p. 360). Among the Indians husbands of ten years of age and wives of eight are mentioned (Thevenot, Reisen, iii. pp. 100 and 165). In Abyssinia boys of twelve and even ten years old marry (Rüppell, Abessynien, ii. p. 59). Among the Jews in Tiberias, mothers of eleven years of age and fathers of thirteen are not uncommon (Burckh. Syrien, p. 570); and Lynch saw a wife there, who to all appearance was a mere child about ten years of age, who had been married two years already. In the epist. ad N. Carbonelli, from Hieronymi epist. ad Vitalem, 132, and in an ancient glossa, Bochart has also cited examples of one boy of ten years and another of nine, qui nutricem suam gravidavit, together with several other cases of a similar kind from later writers. Cf. Bocharti Opp. i. (Geogr. sacr.) p. 920, ed. Lugd. 1692.
(Vol. 3, Page 283-284).Peabody, MA: Hendrickson.
Annoyed Pinoy continues:
Many (not all) Muslims have the wrong notion that once menstruation occurs it's God's sign that she is ready to be sexually active and bear children. But that's not medically true. Other parts of a woman's anatomy (like the hips) need to develop for her to be ready to bear children. That's a reason why a lot of women die or suffer terrible injuries in Islamic cultures. Because they didn't postpone marriage long enough.
Good reasons to call the God of Ezekiel 16 stupid and brutish for thinking a girls "readiness" for love is indicated by formation of breasts and pubic hair. Plenty of 10 year old girls have fully formed breasts and public hair, and yet are obviously nowhere "ready" for sex as God thinks they are.
Or because so many Christians are insincere liberal idiots, the Christian God has decided to wreak havoc and chaos in America like he apparently did in Israel, read Deut. 28.The Christian God of love, wisdom, and healing would naturally want and expect us culturally to promote a safe age for marriage (with the assumption that the consummation of the marriage occurs soon after marriage).
But a god who creates a universe shouldn't have a problem doing at least as good of a job at setting the minimum age by law, as godless secularists have in America for the last 50 years.In some cultures female sexual maturation occurs earlier than in other cultures. So, there can be no specific fixed age for a female to marry.
It depends on both biological and psychological maturity.
No, your God only identifies two criteria, boobs and pubic hair. Ezekiel 16.
Mr. Fosi7/08/2017 8:10 PM
My first response when I saw the initial question that Steve is addressing was to point out the repeated directive in Song of Solomon to "not awaken love before it's time" and the idea at the end of the book that the "little sister without breasts" is one who is being guarded/protected. It's also clear from the language of that book that the lover and the beloved are sexualy mature.
Again, sex within adult-child marriages was likely not "normative" in ANE cultures, but that does not fulfill your burden to disprove the contention that the God of the bible disapproves of that act.
Also, there is a much more basic argument to be had from the 2nd greatest commandment.
That's a rather vacuous argument: were the Israelites treating their neighbors as themselves when massacring the baby boys in Numbers 31:17?
Argument from silence. Can you back it up?Children are never sexual objects in the bible.
You can call that 'silence' if you like but in the presence of plenty of sexual stories and rules regarding sex, it is a ringing silence.
On the contrary, the fact that the rules specifically prohibit obvious sins like bestiality, but never give the minimum age or conditions under which a girl could be legitimately married, counsel that the god of the bible did not feel that sex below any certain age was prohibited. Does God care more about animals having sex, than he cares about kids having sex?
But marriage today is based on romance and an evolved intellectual consideration of compatibility, entirely different from the arranged marriages for business and profit and continuation of family line as they were in the ANE.Finally, Christian parents don't encourage their kids to marry and have sexual relations with adults and Christian kids are told to obey their patents. Not exactly second use of the law but the bible is primarily for God's people.
Steve's failure is clear from the fact that he presupposes biblical inerrancy...he is writing to Christian inerrantists who are just as prone as he is to automatically think any use of the bible to justify modern Christian morality is valid. It doesn't matter if Paul knew of other ways to identify sin apart from the Law, what else Paul knew does not fit with his absolutist language in Romans 7:7.
So while you are free to believe the bible condemns sex within adult-child marriages, you certainly cannot fulfill your burden to show that the god of Moses similarly disapproved.
